Tuesday, 23 September 2008
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Currently Reading
The Revolution: A Manifesto
By Ron Paul
see relatedThird party candidates - Wasting your vote?
Is voting for a third party candidate a waste of a vote? Let's keep this discussion to the presidential level. My take:Splitting the vote results in skewed allocation of preferences. Presumably, most Nader voters would have preferred Gore to Bush in 2000 even though they preferred Nader to Gore. By voting for Nader, though, they got their distant third choice instead of their relatively close second choice. That’s not an ideal outcome, I’d say. (For them, anyway. Those of us who preferred Bush to Gore and Nader were quite pleased.)
Clearly, some sizable portion of the Republican base is less than thrilled with McCain as their nominee. Ironically, in this context, they face this choice partly because the social conservative vote was split among many candidates, most prominently Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee, allowing the “moderate” McCain to win.
Regardless, however, only McCain and Obama are plausible winners in November. Barring tragic circumstances, one of them will be our next president. It’s therefore irrelevant if one would actually prefer some third alternative.
The only way it makes sense, then, to vote for a Bob Barr or Alan Keyes or Ralph Nader or some other person who will not be our next president is if you honestly have no preference whatsoever as to whether McCain or Obama prevails. Otherwise, even if it’s a 1 percent, hold-your-nose difference, you should vote for that guy.
(In reality of course, it’s a bit more complicated because most states will be uncompetitive in the Fall, with all its electors preordained for either the Democrat or the Republican. If you vote in one of those states, a “protest vote” is perfectly reasonable. And, of course, this all presumes that thinking your one vote will matter is rational, anyway.)
My home city of Minneapolis passed a bill to allow for instant-runoff voting in local elections. I think this is the only way that third party candidates could stand a chance in national elections.
What say you?
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Comments (28)
I think third-party votes are a waste. As far as statement making goes, nobody really notices & the same two parties decide the outcome. Sad as it is, you must (seemingly) vote for the lesser of two evils.
@spothedog - Ditto. Or, like another xangan put it, "I'm voting for the lesser douche."
In a perfect world, at least four parties would be covered by media and included in the debates. There's the Libertarian Party (which would have my vote if my #1 priority wasn't keeping McLame and nutjob Palin away from the White House), and the Constitution party. I'm no expert in politics (VERY far from it), so I wonder why it is that they are not at least mentioned in the news...
@In_Reason_I_Trust - They're not mentioned in the news because News = Mega-Corp Inc.
Unfortunately, you're absolutely right. Third party candidates don't stand a chance. The only way they would (and the way I wish we could do things, impossible as it may be) is if all candidates were given an equal opportunity to make themselves known, and their party affiliation was not revealed. Like I said, though, that's impossible. They're democratic/republican governors, senators, etc., so their affiliation is already known, and not difficult to find out for anyone who doesn't know. And since we're so hung up on labels in this country, we would be all over that. Our feeble attempt at neutrality would almost immediately turn right back into "democrat, republican, and some other guys nobody cares about". But that's what would be necessary, for anyone other than the repub/dem to stand a chance. We would have to not know which candidate is in which party.
I'm totally voting Green Party. I like Obama but not that much to vote for him.
@FemmeMrbd08 - You are free to vote for whomever you want, but keep in mind that McCain and especially Palin stand for virtually everything the Green party is against, such as bloated corporatism and progressive policy. If you wanted to stop that madness, you have to make a net gain for McCain's adversary, not someone McCain isn't running against. Sure they're all on the ballot, but only one of them McCain is running against.
This will be my first year voting, and I toyed with the idea of voting for the green party earlier this year, so I asked my dad for advice. He's notorious (in my family anyway) for never having voted for a candidate who stood any chance of winning until Bill Clinton lol, so I figured he'd have some insight into the pros and cons of voting 3rd party- of course he started by saying that I should make my own decision blah blah blah, but his view is that in general since your single vote doesn't make any great impact anyway, you should vote for who you really want because you feel better about it at the end of the day. However, certain elections crop up where one choice is so outlandishly worse than the other that you would be doing yourself a disservice by not helping the main opposing candidate as much as possible, and this is one of them lol. I am inclined to agree with him.
@Bobby - I don't feel like my vote will matter that much anyway with this whole Electoral College bs. I wish we'd just get rid of it. I live in AR so...McCain will probably win my state anyway, unfourtunately.
@FemmeMrbd08 - Yeah, thats pretty lame. I live in Ohio where its like urgent. But I know how you feel.
So in AR, I'm guessing you're not supporting Pryor for Senate
I'm sure I sound like a stereotype, here, but I really believe that it's due to the media that third-party candidates aren't more important than elections. Ralph Nader is unpopular-why? Because he never receives any coverage by the important news networks. Like Dennis Kucinich, and other Democratic candidates; the media never considered them as 'serious contenders'.
I know this is a tad off the topic of your post, but I just wanted to express how I felt about it.
yes i'll take the bait. first, in 2000 of all floridians that voted for nader, 26% would have voted for Bush, 33% of voters would have voted for Gore, and the rest said they wouldn't have voted. additionally, even if nader hadn't run, there were still enough votes for the several other third party candidates on the ballot to where Gore would have lost. plus, why didn't Gore win his home state, TN. why couldn't his incumbent president when him arkansas. why didn't he insist on florida being counted, instead of getting on his knees in front of the republicans, like the democrats continue to do. moreover, why didn't gore take a stand on real issues. in eight years as head of the epa, he failed to take one environmental stand against the automobile industry, and his list of sell outs goes on. it's a mistake to think that people would vote for Democrats if a liberal independent wasn't running, because some of us just consider the democrats to be wholesale spineless sell outs that are hurting the progress of our country.
what about people that just vote for a person they believe in? i personally don't believe in voting for the lesser of two douche bags, and since a douche bag may very well win, i'm not going to stoop to voting for either one. if there is a candidate i can believe in, i will vote for him/her. in this case Nader. otherwise, i wouldn't vote. i am not voting for the lesser of evil, that still nets evil, and i don't want to be responsible for that choice.
additionally, as long as people vote and choose the d-bags, because a third party candidate 'can't win' we will continue to get douche bag politicians. a third party candidate can win any time, as soon as people stop settling for the two parties that have thrown our country into the fascist shitter. as soon as you and i stop repeating the propaganda phrase the two headed dictatorship has spoon fed us, 'a third party can't win anyways', then third parties will start winning. they won't win though as long as we believe the lie.
finally, third parties aren't failure because they don't win. third parties strengthen our democracy, all the way to the loss column. the liberals don't have to compete for our vote, by being stronger, by not being corrupt, because we don't have anyone else to vote for. they know we will choose them out of obligation, so they don't impeach bush, they drill for oil, they authorize the patriot act.
Nader, as well as other third parties, have succeeded already; because when the two piece of shit parties realize that some people won't vote for them out of duty or default, they have to consider a little more carefully beginning to actually represent the people, instead of big business.
one day, in someone's life time, a third party will (i hope), save our democracy. change will only come from without. the duopolistic corporate party has failed us. but it's up to us to see that and take back power.
@Lack_Therof - yeah, well the media is a major corporation itself, and so they have a tightly vested interest and keeping corporations in power, even moreso because they are using mine and your public air waves for free, given to them by our govt. so it is vital for the news corporations to keep nader out of the media, because he spells the end for corporate power. so, word.
Part of the problem is the monopolistic media's handling of third parties, the other is people too lazy tor check for alternatives. Voting for a third party has longer reaching effects. A good example is Nader in Florida as Brasher5o mentioned. The next election, both main parties adjust their positions to try to capture the loose segment.
@Bobby - Nope nope nope. I don't like any of my "representatives."
The problem is, the GOP is too savvy to let any of their ilk split off and go third-party. Ergo, third-party candidates will continue to serve as a Democratic foil.
There's a major flaw in your logic that assumes the only pragmatic victory is an electoral one. What of the progressive struggle for the Democratic platform, a battle I think it is safe to say we have been losing over the past 20 plus years? As I see it, their are two approaches within this camp of how to go about achieving their goal:
1. You can, as you put it, "hold your nose" and pull the lever for the lesser of two evils, in hopes that after his electoral victory, you can push forward progressive values on a more receptive candidate. But let's put ourselves in Obama's shoes. On one hand, he has millions and millions of dollars from corporations and lobbyists that he knows he can very well lose to a Republican candidate if he doesn't compromise on certain issues. On the other, a group of voters that have clearly demonstrated they will vote for him regardless. If you make no demands on a candidate, what exactly do you expect him to answer to?
2. You can put your foot down and say, "The lesser of two evils mentality is the evil of two lessers." Vote for a third party candidate and clearly demonstrate that your vote does not belong to a corporate-dominated party. If they want it, they have to earn it. And historically (so you don't think I'm presenting too many hypotheticals), this technique has proven effective. In the mid-1800s, you had the Abolition party which forced the Republican party (at that time an up and coming third party) to put an Anti-slavery agenda on the table. In the early-1900s, you had the Socialist party and Eugene Debs (who got 3.4% of the vote from a prison cell in 1920), which was clearly acknowledge as the impetus for Roosevelt's New Deal.
So there's my pragmatic rationale, and as you could probably guess, I'm voting for Nader. (I do live in New York, but I'd like to think I would do the same in a swing state.) The question I have for you, or anyone who votes Democrat while opposing the majority of their positions, is what is your breaking point? Your post would seem to suggest you have none. At the risk of breaking Godwin's law, do you vote for Stalin in a election against Hitler?
To quote Eugene Debs: "I'd rather vote for something I want and not get it, than something I don't and get it."
Or, to quote the Simpsons: "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos."
@Ciceros_Assassin - bob barr is running as libertarian this year and he is expected to get a percentage of the gop vote.
The reasoning in the post doesn't make sense, because it comes all too close to implying that you really shouldn't vote since your vote won't make a difference anyways. The reasoning assumes "your vote should make a differnce in electing the next president." Facing facts, you simply can NOT assume this. So, the reasoning may work as "valid", but it comes as empty.
As already pointed out the two-party system has MAJOR problems. The only way this problem gets rectified comes as to vote outside the box. So VOTE OUTSIDE THE BOX. This way you express your belief that you want voting FREEDOM, and not the tyranny of an "either-or" party system.
I think that third-party votes mostly take away from a Democratic vote, in a general sense, I mean. I completely agree with the first paragraph whole-heartedly.
There are some countries that have a graduated system for voting that supports 3+ parties much better. The way it works is you vote for a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice. If your first choice candidate doesn't win a majority, your vote then goes to your 2nd choice. So someone could vote Nader as their #1 and Obama as their #2. This would make so much more sense as a) more people would feel comfortable voting for a 3rd party, sending the message that there's support and a public outcry for something different from the 2 major parties, and b) allow those people to not "throw away: their vote.
It sure would be nice to have something like this in place instead of our current system.
@mightymarce - That's the instant-runoff voting that Minneapolis set up recently. We need that nationwide, but can you imagine Republicans OR Democrats getting behind that initiative?
If they were smart they might, as it would still take a lot more to get one of those 3rd parties to actually get enough support to be a true competitor, and it would mean each party potentially getting more votes from people who would otherwise just be voting for a 3rd party.
we talk about voting 3rd party and whether or not it is even plausible to get one elected but the only reason it isn't, the only reason we have this discussion, is because of the Commission on Presidential Debates, a private corporation set up by the dems and reps in the 80s. This private corporation took the debates from the League of Women, stole them outright because the League knew it was corrupt; now the CPD is run by the former head of the Democratic party and the former head of the Republican party, one is a pharmaceutical lobbyist and the other a gambling lobbyist, and they exclude 3rd party candidates from the debates, which is where most americans get informed on the choices.
do you think they are going to give nader a fair shot to debate mccaine and obama, when the two corporate candidates have taken more corporate money in the last year than you could count, and nader hasn't taken one cent. he would crucify them on national television for their corruption before the whole nation. so they develop bogus standards to exclude him. under the League, you needed 5% to get on the debates. Now it's 15% in 5 different corporate polls of the CPD's choosing. It's rigged. plus they black him out from the media. our democracy is a hoax. anybody could win if you can debate, so they protect their candidates from competition.
vote 3rd party.
Meh, it is not like my vote matters anyways, at least not for president. I would rather vote for the candidate I want to win, than vote for someone who I have no reason to believe will actually do anything they have promised to do, and most likely has no semblance of honesty or virtue.
Can me a fool if you like, but I am going to vote for Nader. I am not a political scientist or anything ...oh wait, I am. I don't really feel like voting in the other corporate taskmasters, will really make a difference. The only way I see the system changing is if we radically change our voting system itself. I would prefer proportional representation myself.
3rd party candidates cannot win elections this day and age primarily because people have accepted that it is acceptable to vote for the lesser of two evils. This whole idea that a vote for a third party is a wasted vote is the reason why third parties have so much trouble winning elections. Plato was right, common wisdom is just arguments from authority repeated over and over until people believe them to be true.
@LoverStyle - I disagree. The democratic vote steals from the third-party votes.... do you see my point? I am not being entirely serious, but understand, that is poor reasoning and a poor reason to dislike third parties. Without the democratic party, some of those third parties would probably be very competitive.