Monday, 23 February 2009

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    A pro-life dilemma

    You are in a burning building and you have the option to save only one of two options:

    A) You save a cryogenic container containing two fertilized embryos that are still viable.

    B) You save a newborn infant.

    Can anyone honestly say they'd pick option A? If so, I worry about your thought process. If not, then the argument that "all life is equal and any abortion is murder" is obviously untrue (or you just are really bad at math).

    Is this a reasonable argument? Or is another godless liberal taking everything out of context again?

Comments (101)

  • juliebeanss

    That's a tough one. I think in that in a state of panic, one would naturally save the newborn infant.

  • trunthepaige

    Yes arguments always do best at the extremes. Though saving the frozen embryos has never been the top priority of anyone I have ever come in contact with. I will trade you frozen embryos for all the abortions after the 20th week.

  • bryangoodrich

    Um, what's the confusion? You save the embryos. There's two of them and only one of that ugly troll. Duh!

    But you do make the assumption that the ethics is a simple utilitarian calculation. Sum up the number of lives, weigh the value of equal weight on life and that embryos are life, and the answer is simple. Even if we had some twisted pro-life conception of life here, I would find the level of ethical evaluation there grotesque, but then I have never been a fan of utilitarianism. (am actually going to do a blog about it, citing something Sam Harris said on Beyond Belief 2008, when I find the time).

  • GodlessLiberal

    @juliebeanss - For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that you're in some dastardly Bond villain-esque trap, where you have a long time while the villain is soliloquizing before the fire is set and you are set free.


    @bryangoodrich - But what if the baby isn't ugly? Then what?

  • soccerdadforlife

    Neither, as natural selection would show that they are all unfit.

  • GodlessLiberal

    @soccerdadforlife - Good point. Shame on that baby for not having evolved fireproofing.

  • drung888

    @soccerdadforlife - However, based on those same ideas of natural selection, the newborn is still relatively much more fit than the embryos (combined) considering the baby 1) already survived nine months of hardship and 2) is actual life.  There two characteristics thus make the infant in a much better position to pass on whatever genetic information it may have.  In contrast, the embryos are merely potential life, both of which still face a steep up hill battle to birth which involves numerous factors such as the survival of the mother and even possible natural abortions that may occur. 

    With the newborn being the much more fit individual, the choice is clearer (though not easier).

  • vickevlar

    That's a great point. Some pro-lifers don't seem to see there's a gradient to life- something can be more or less a baby, a close-to-being-born fetus is more a baby than a combination of sperm and egg that has divided once. Darn, don't you wish someone could have created and designed the universe in such a way that we don't have to make an arbitrary distinction between undeveloped and developed babies? :P

    You probably just intended to counter the "every collection of human cells is a person" argument, but I don't think it goes much beyond that, maybe not even the "every collection of human cells is sacred" one. Using the same understanding that there's a gradient, you'd rescue the baby because it is much closer to a conscious human being than the embryos, but that doesn't mean the embryos aren't worth saving in a situation where you don't have to make a choice, if that makes any sense. I think your question effectively destroys the notion that any stage of life = fully functioning human being, but it doesn't necessarily break down their argument that any given stage of life is human enough for it to be immoral to "kill" it, so to speak. 

    Btw, I love your icon, it reminds me of the stencils of a street artist named Posterchild, I'm suddenly sad that I haven't kept up with his work.  

  • WAR_ON_ERROR

    Next question.  Who would risk their life to save option A if it were JUST option A?  Everyone is evacuated out of the building.  Oh darn, we forgot to check the fridge for frozen human cells.  Do you send a fireman in or not? 

    Third question.  If there's no danger whatsoever, and someone walks by and uses their thumb to squash the fertilized human embryos in your Petri dish, do you cry? 

    Ben

  • whosyourbiatch

    That's easy.

    Eggs can't survive out of their petri dish.

    Babies can.

    That's why I don't see any real issues with abortion. I mean, if the kid can survive outside the womb as is...abortion would most likely be considered murder.

    But if it can't survive anyway, wouldn't it be considered a... parasite?

    Of course babies need to be taking care of while they grow and develop, but they can at least breathe/poop/cry/etc. on their own. Embryos can't even make FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, which is, as you know, one of the best characteristics infants possess.

  • soccerdadforlife

    @vickevlar - See my post on abortion. Abortion should be legal up to the 50th year, when a potential human becomes fully human.

  • In_Reason_I_Trust

    @WAR_ON_ERROR - Food for thought.  I actually think your first scenario is better than the one presented in the entry, but both cast the whole issue in a new light. Probably a light that die-hard pro-lifers would not want to be shone on their claims.

  • UTRow1

    The death of a newborn child reflects more on the biological fitness of the parents than the newborn children. This is a common point of confusion on the part of many anti-abortionists concerning the biological view on the issue. Human infants possess very little deterministic biological fitness in and of themselves, apart of their immunological fitness. However, children possess the genetic material of their parents. The biological fitness of parents is largely determined by their ability to not only pass on, but proliferate and preserve their genes in future generations of offspring. Therefore, the failure to protect the lives of newborns is actually, theoretically, to the genetic and biological disadvantage of the human parents given the fact that the human species has evolved in such a way that during early developmental phases infants rely on the care of their parents to survive. It's not until children are older that the fitness factors encoded within their genes begin to be expressed or even become fully expressed, or in other words, it's not until children are older that their individual biological fitness begins to be expressed. Unlike many animals who rely less on social bonding to survive than humans, this newborn-parent relationship intensifies social bonds that are also biological beneficial for the parents.  So, I guess the parents of the infant of your hypothetical are unfit for not adequately protecting their child from being in that situation.


    Also, arguing with the kinds of abortionists that equate embryos with fully developed children is a complete waste of time. Anyone crazy enough to fool themselves into believing that a clump of not wholly differentiated cells is equivalent to something with a consciousness, whether it's human or animal, should be avoided at all costs. That kind of extreme stupidity is intellectually dangerous at best.

  • GodAintGood

    definitely the infant. pro-life folks won't give you an honest answer cause it would bring their bullshit to light.

  • GodlessLiberal

    @vickevlar - You make an excellent point that I often address when discussing abortion. This is one of those scenarios where we try to figure out exactly which moment the fetus becomes a human. But this is a mistake of the discontinuous mindset (which is often a problem when discussing evolution as well, but I won't get into that at the moment). You don't put cake batter in the oven and think that at 29:59 it is batter and at 30:00 it is cake. There is no one instant when the cake goes from "undone" to "done."

    @drung888 - Based on your arguments, it seems that if the situation were between a three year old and a newborn, you'd go for the three year old every time. Is this the case? While I'd make the same decision as you, I don't know if it would be for the same reason.

    @UTRow1 - An excellent point. An obvious case calling into question the fitness of the parents is the recent octomom scandal.

    @GodAintGood - I figured the same thing. Still, I wanted the question out in the open.

  • vickevlar

    @GodlessLiberal - The problem is that we need discrete categories like that to function. Even if gradients, grey areas, etc are more accurate representations of life, for practical purposes it doesn't really help us. I'm over 18, but am I an adult? Definitely debatable lol, but it would be impossible to make a system where we define people's legal adult status based on varying grades of individual maturity. If we're going to make legal limitations on abortion (which we should,) there's going to have to be some arbitrary point where it's suddenly a baby and suddenly not. This is mostly where the whole abortion issue drives me nuts, if we were going about this right the debate would be over the stickier details of drawing the line and it would be, frankly, boring.

  • GodlessLiberal

    @vickevlar - Oh, I completely agree that arbitrary lines need to be drawn for legal issues. It's an extremely frustrating issue, and also the reason I got an underage drinking ticket three days before my 21st birthday (the judge dismissed the case, but still...).

    I deal with this necessity of discrete boundaries all the time working in evolution. Hmmm... I think I see a post in this.

  • LadyLibellule

    @GodlessLiberal - 'You don't put cake batter in the oven and
    think that at 29:59 it is batter and at 30:00 it is cake. There is no
    one instant when the cake goes from "undone" to "done."'

    Good point.  That reminds me of some of Dr. Helen Wambach's research (which you may or may not take seriously).  She was interested in reincarnation, and studied many people who were under hypnosis.  One of her surprising findings was that almost 90% of her subjects said that they did not become part of the fetus until after 6 months of gestation.  Of the others, some became part earlier, and some did not join the fetus until even later.  Whether or not you believe in reincarnation doesn't really matter; I just thought it was interesting that there was no one answer.  To tie it in with the cake analogy, it would mean that for some people, the batter becomes a cake at 20:00... and for others, the batter doesn't become a cake until 25:46.

    I guess it depends on a number of factors.  Like the oven...?

  • GodlessLiberal

    @LadyLibellule - While interesting, you were right to add the caveat that I might not take it seriously. I don't. Still, I think I'll look into that a little bit, I admit my curiosity has been piqued. 

  • anonymous

    Excellent argument. I would love to hear a pro-lifer give a straight answer to the question.

  • musterion99

    If this is supposed to show that the embryos aren't human, then it's just a red herring. It's no different than asking if - You are in a burning building and there are 3 babies. You can only save 2 of them. Which ones would you pick?

  • GodlessLiberal

    @musterion99 - So you're saying you'd save the embryos instead of the infant?

    [You are in a burning building and there are 3 babies. You can only save 2 of them. Which ones would you pick?]
    You know as well as I do that the question is not the same, as you can see by reading some of the answers thus far. Also, if you reread my post, you'll see that in scenario B you only save one.

  • DearSnippie

    I can tell i like your blog already!

    The answer is B

  • musterion99

    @GodlessLiberal - Hypothetical's prove nothing. What are the odds of you being in a burning house and there just happens to be 2 frozen embryos and a baby and for some unexplainable reason, you can only choose to save one or the other? The odds are nil and it's ridiculous to answer.

    We never know for sure what we will do in unexpected circumstances. The question is erroneously designed to show that maybe the embryos aren't really human, but no matter what choice is made, it doesn't prove whether they are or aren't. If out of emotions in that situation, someone chose the baby because they can relate more to an actual developed baby instead of an embryo, that wouldn't prove that the embryos aren't human. We make a lot of decisions in life based upon emotions.

  • GodlessLiberal

    @musterion99 - On the contrary, hypotheticals are extremely helpful. It's how we build security systems. But we can ignore the burning building situation. If I asked you which would be more important to save, five men or one man, you would probably pick the five. So which would be more important to save, the two embryos or the one infant?

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