Tuesday, 17 March 2009

  • Currently
    The Brothers Karamazov
    By Fyodor Dostoevsky
    see related

    Theodicy - God's Defense

    Theodicy - the problem of reconciling the existence of evil or suffering in the world with the existence of a god.

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing?
    Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him God?”
    Epicurus

    Revelife inspired me for once (combined with some reading I've been doing as well), so I thought I'd tackle the conundrum they posed: Is God's Will Behind the Tragedies Around the World? This is a tricky problem for theists.

    So here we go, I am going to try and tackle every reason ever given to me to justify belief in some sort of omnipotent, omnipresent and, most imperatively, omnibenevolent greater being. These are normally given in response to the question "why does god let bad things happen to good people?" I'm sure this is one of those posts which will piss people off. Oh well. We'll go reason by reason. And cut me a little slack, I'm not much of one for philosophy, so this is stepping out of my safety bubble:

    Hidden Harmony Defense: While few, if any, of my readers have heard it called this, all know what it is. It's the "everything happens for a reason" creedo. A good example Christians use is forest fires. At first it seems destructive, but ecologists tell us that fires are part of nature's rhythms. The clear away the dead trees, and allow sunlight to filter down and promote new growth. This argument is easy enough to pick apart. Let's look at a common example of what happens within these fires: a small fawn is caught in the middle of the fire. It gets horribly burned, and dies a painful death over the next three days. What sort of greater good could come from this? Well, let's say it's carrying a pathogen within itself, that if left unchecked, would cause a plague worse than the black death. This wouldn't explain why it has to be burned alive, now would it? Maybe only intense heat could kill the bacteria. Does this seem likely to anyone else? Me neither.

    Let's turn and look at the Nazi concentration camps in WWII, what is most likely one of the greatest evils of the last century. Why would God allow these to exist? Here's a theory: all the people who died in these camps - Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles; every man, woman and child - every one of them was plotting to manufacture and disperse a lethal chemical capable of wiping out life on Earth. By permitting the Holocaust, God prevented the extinction of millions of species, including our own. Seem likely to you? 'Cause it sure as hell doesn't to me. But here's the clincher: think of where you are right now. Think of the nearest body of water. Now, imagine that starts flooding. Houses and lives will be lost. What do you do? You run over and help people start throwing sandbags on to prevent the flooding, not sit and think about whether or not there is some sort of "greater good" involved. So my question to people who wish to argue this is: If this is a hidden harmony universe, then why do we try so hard to change it?

    Disciplinary Defense and Eschatology: As you come up against life's hardships, people often discover reserves of compassion and patience. This is used often by scholars (St. Augustine, Martin Luther, etc.) This confronts the idea of God as a sort of "cosmic surgeon", who reluctantly inflicts pain while repairing our souls. But look at the Vietnam war. Why did some people come back with missing limbs, and others come home intact? Most religious scholar supplement this with the eschatological argument, which states that our spiritual growth continues after death. Christian eschatology holds that anyone who shuffles off this mortal coil unscathed will undergo various disciplinary trials upon entering the next life. This argument was first presented by Bishop Origen in the 3rd century (Origen, incidentally, castrated himself out of faith. Just an interesting piece of history).

    We'll look at the Bible for these arguments. Does everyone know the story of Lot? When leaving the city of Sodom, Lot and his family were told not to look back. Lot's wife did, and was turned to a pillar of salt. She needed to be taught a lesson, it seems, regarding moral fiber and obeying God's will. Now, it seems to me that the punishment there didn't quite fit the crime. In doing this, God acted much less like a cosmic surgeon and much more like a vivisectionist. Now, what about the AIDS epidemic? Many Christians would say that this is retribution against homosexuals. This could be so, since the Bible does state in Lev. 18:22 "Homosexuality is an abomination". And if Lot's wife could be turned to salt for looking back, this type of punishment would fit the bill. But then, what happens when, say, a six year old hemophiliac gets a blood transfusion and through that, AIDS? What is the reasoning for that? Friendly fire? So that turns us towards the eschatological defense (spiritual growth after death). All's well that ends well. Life is hell, but then you go to Heaven. Spare the rod, spoil the species. I don't buy it. A father does not have the right to sexually molest his children throughout the winter simple because he intends to take his children to Disneyland in the spring. (I told you I'd offend people.) I believe in the old maxim, that delayed justice is denied justice.

    Liberum Arbitrium: Free will. A simple argument, stating that all the evil in the world can be chalked up to the fact that God gave us free will with which to run our lives. This doesn't explain diseases, and what insurance companies in their infinite wisdom claimed were "acts of god" (tornados, hurricanes, volcanoes, floods, etc.). But it does explain why God didn't step in every time someone is about to murder, rape, maim, etc. But we'll ignore all that. Simply stated, God created us. So why not create us with a bit more compassion? More mercy? More truth, good will, friendliness, love? That would allow us free will, but still would create a better world. Seems simple enough to me. But we'll let this one go for a second, and tie it in with our next defense.

    Ontological Defense: The defense that without bad there is no good. If everything were red, then red would be a meaningless concept. Get it? Without all the terrible things in the world, we would have no appreciation for the good. But why the amount of evil? This is explained by Leibniz's famous quote: that this is "the best of all possible worlds." It can also be explained by what I've dubbed the "bagel theory" (stick with me here). When you go to buy a bagel, you know you're buying the dough, not the hole, so you're happy to pay for it. But when looking at the universe, people like myself focus on the negative; the cosmic hole in the bagel. The ontological defense also explains much of natural disasters. God had to set down a lay of ground rules: combustion, gravity, motion, and so on. A good example is the bone; if the bone was strong enough to never break, it would be far too heavy for us to move around well. Also, if the ground was hard enough to avoid earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, then farming, mining and road building would be impossible.

    This now brings us back to moral evil, and liberum arbitrium. Liberum arbitrium permits us to make many inventions: trains, ships, opera houses. All these inventions involve a potential for disaster: trains derail, ships sink, opera houses collapse. But it's better to build an airplane, even though it may succumb to gravity, than to remain forever on the ground, confined by our Creator's loving desire to protect us, reads the basic argument. There is one major flaw. Now, assuming anyone using this argument is a Christian, then they most likely believe in heaven. It's an amazing neck of the woods, I hear. An ideal world. The exact ideal world that the ontological defense says we cannot have. Why not just make earth heaven?

    How do you reconcile evil and misfortune with your worldview?

    P.S. I'll return to Noah's Ark in my next post.

Comments (27)

  • Parsimony

    I tend to be an optimistic and idealistic person so I shun the idea of evil.  It does exist in heinous crimes and if there is good there must be bad (light vs dark contrast).  A painter can only reflect and create through expression what he sees, he's not going to keep changing his painting likewise a creator.  Following Thomas Aquinas, if the hand does not move the stick, the stick does not move.  We are living creatures therefore, we or the stick insect can move and affect change to his fate and environment.

  • mini_mayfield

    The defense that without bad there is no good. If everything were red, then red would be a meaningless concept. Get it? Without all the terrible things in the world, we would have no appreciation for the good.


    Yeah, I've definitely heard this one before. But then, why couldn't God simply create us to have the capacity to appreciate good, even in the absence of evil? He could make the world a wonderland of joy and happiness, and create us to enjoy it and find awe/wonder in everything. There's no reason why he couldn't do that.


    All in all, great post. It'll be interesting to see how the religious folk respond to it.

  • Romans_837

    I am the author of "Is God's Will Behind The Tragedies."
    I am a Christian, but I'm not the most skillful with explanations. 

    As you may have noticed, I vehemently reject, as you put it, the 'Hidden Harmony" theory. 

    Trying to sort out God's judgment; cause and effect; and God being able to use bad things that He didn't cause to mold people into better people...I do not consider myself wise enough to always say that some event is a, b, or c.  (Occasionally, it's obvious, but not always)
    (Not all Christians agree with Origen's theory - I myself hadn't heard of it before.)

    The "Ontological Defense"...meh.  The Bible says that God put the first human couple in Eden. 

    How do I reconcile evil and misfortune?  There's a devil who hasn't yet been locked in the lake of fire, there's some stupid people (including me) who do really dumb stuff, and this world has been touched by the curse. 

  • nowayout001

    Evil and misfortune? You won't treasure happiness when you never felt sad...

  • GodAintGood

    i don't suspect anyone would provide anything with suitable evidence to back up any rebuttal they might put forth.

  • huginn

    Nice.


    I suppose the Adam&Eve/Original Sin cop-out is too religion-specific for the list.

  • blonde_apocalypse

    Extremely well handled.  I hold to the "ontological" ideas personally, and you are right about it being inconsistent with a belief in a "better place" someplace else.  The thing that makes arguing for/against God nearly pointless is that you have to argue for/against religion as well, the two bearing very little resemblance to one another.

  • huginn

    @nowayout001 - // Evil and misfortune? You won't treasure happiness when you never felt sad... //


    You won't treasure your fingers until you've had one lopped off.


    Ergo, God should give every man, woman, and child an amputation of the left pinkie.

  • interstellarmachine

    For the lost, it is a passive result of a fallen world and sin nature, ultimately leading to judgment. For the Christian, it is for our ultimate benefit.

  • royal_diadem

    Statistics. Bad things happen to people (good or bad) because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  • irishgrrl690

    I'm a Deist in a lot of sense when it comes to this discussion. God put us here and leaves us mostly alone to exercise our free will as we choose. So there are idiots who go on shooting sprees, tsunamis that flatten nations and illnesses that kill millions.

    He put the world in motion and, I imagine, is gonna leave us alone until is time for the revelatory roll call.

  • ithiliya

    "When leaving the city of Sodom, Lot and his family were told not to look back. Lot's wife did, and was turned to a pillar of salt. She needed to be taught a lesson, it seems, regarding moral fiber and obeying God's will.  Now, it seems to me that the punishment there didn't quite fit the crime."


    Not to mention, what use is a lesson to a dead person?



  • SirNickDon

    I am a free-will Christian, and I totally reject the idea of ontological dualism.  A person does not, in fact, need to experience the full range of pain to experience the full range of pleasure.  Evil isn't a thing that exists alongside goodness as a thing.  Evil is goodness perverted. 

    But there's a problem in your explanation of the free-will defense.  The idea of creating a being who is free but also creating them predetermined to be merciful, good or friendly is a contradiction in terms.  Freedom is the freedom to choose, and an ontological freedom (which I believe God grants to both human and spiritual beings) is the freedom to choose what you will become, whether merciful or merciless.  To the exact degree that one has the capacity to choose good, they must have the capacity to choose against it, otherwise that is not freedom, only a farce of freedom.  (Of course, not every individual has absolute freedom, in that their genetics and environment certainly predispose them to certain eventualities.)  Each person has the freedom not only to choose who they will be come (to some extent), but also to affect others, and their ability to affect them for the worse is in exact proportion to their ability to affect them for the better. 

    The best academic treatment on free-will theodicy (without using ontological dualism) is Greg Boyd's Satan and the Problem of Evil.  I don't mean for any of this to persuade you, but it is a logically self-consistent theodicy, granted the premises that a personal, powerful, benevolent god exists.

  • lotta_valdez

    I like you, Godless, I really do.

  • greatsneha

    I think of God as a personal energy through my soul that keeps my spirits up and helps me through my tough times. More of an "imaginary friend" than some sort of omnipotent savior of humankind. The religion that best describes my state of mind towards God is Deism. However, I am Hindu - I do believe in those Gods because they were taught to me. However I don't believe they're "miracle workers" and I just believe they are representations of the good and kind spirit whose sole purpose is to stir up a bit of optimism, hope, and love within people's hearts.

    I like this post.

  • greatsneha
    Without all the terrible things in the world, we would have no appreciation for the good.


    I don't necessarily agree with this. It doesn't work for everything. Someone pointed out an example with fingers - I agree with him. I personally treasure every part of my body and I still have all those parts. I also treasure romantic love but never felt it (I'm young - I'm not a loser!). So yeah, that statement is not applicable to everything.

  • complicatedlight

    "A father does not have the right to sexually molest his
    children throughout the winter simple because he intends to take his
    children to Disneyland in the spring."  EXACTLY. well put.

    the best thing i've come up with is a variation on the ontological view: where the standrd view is, as you put it, "Without all the terrible things in the world, we would have no appreciation for the good." I say, "Without all the terrible things in the world, there could be no good."

    essentially, that in the beginning was the word: because god has structure, and that structure is persistent, physical laws (hyperdimensional, whatever, but LAWS) must precede god himself. like entropy. and conservation laws. and as it happens, one of those laws constrains god thusly: any system containing joy must also contain its opposite (i.e., suffering). if the two must exactly balance, like the conservation of mass-energy, i should think the process of creation would hardly be worth the effort. however, if there's a small break in the symmetry (in physics there are many examples of almost-conserved quantities), and that break can be tilted in favor of joy...and you're god and you've got an infinite amount of time, you might be able to take advantage of it. furthermore, what if that break in favor of joy is accomplished through elements in your creation - for example, through human beings, who, when faced with the choice, given the inputs of life, can choose joy? (ok. i hope you got that?)

    my question is, why does this god, if he exists, insist on playing the "omnipotent card"? if this is the operant mechanism, why doesn't he just lay it out for us? i'd sign right up if he did.

     instead, all we're kept in the dark and fed bullshit.and i'm not a mushroom. i'm a human being.

  • SerenaDante

    I'm atheist ^^ People are just evil sometimes.

  • terracookie

    Some people are just evil. Sometimes, shit just happens. It doesn't have to happen for a reason. I wake up, and I eat breakfast. Or I don't. Does everything need a reason to happen? No. Neither does evil. It just happens sometimes. Not that most of what people define as 'evil' is true evil anyway.

  • Forever_Unlimited

    I have been thinking about the existence of evil a lot recently and I cannot reconcile it with an omni-benevolent, omnipotent Christian God.

    "If God created all things, then is evil also the product of God?"

    One answer I found while reading up on the topic was this: Cold does not exist. Only heat exists. Cold is the absence of heat. You can create heat, but you cannot create cold. Darkness does not exist. Darkness is only the absence of light. You can create light, but you cannot create dark. Likewise evil does not exist. Evil is the absence of Good. God created all that is good, and can only create that which is good. Evil is the absence of God, but does not exist and was not created by God. It is only by the will of man who chose to walk in darkness and live a Godless life that evil exists.

    But then I thought, if it is God that defines all that is good, then:

    Is something good because God wills that it is good, or would God only say it is good if it was in fact good?

    If something is good purely because God wills that it is good, then any number of malicious deeds could become good simply if God wills it [murder, rape, genocide, abortion, pedophilia]. Alternatively, if God is restricted to willing as good only those things which are absolutely good, than this is to postulate a higher absolute than God [to restrict the will of an omnipotent being would be to contradict his omnipotence]

    And if all things happen according to the will of God, why doesn't human free will granted by God more closely align itself with God's will? If the consequence of sin is eternal suffering, why would an omni-benevolent God allow humans to expose themselves to temptation that will damn them to perpetual agony?

  • PhysicsDude

    I have to agree that you stepped out of your safety bubble.  As for the topic mentioned, does it make any difference if we knew the answer?  Other than someone would be able to say they were right while others though differently.

    For me, there is no good or evil in the world, things happen and we make judgments about things.  Whether we're consciously aware of these judgments or not they take place. 

    Take for example a gun going off and killing someone.  Now all thats happened is that a device that requires physical force which then through mechanical means sparks a chemical reaction launches a projectile, managing to hit a person and cause there life to end.  There's nothing really wrong with that at all.  At least not until we make a judgment on it, and often we'll assume its an evil act or a good act depending entirely upon who got killed and who triggered the gun, and we'll draw from our judgements on these people whether the action that resulted was good or bad.  People who think everything is either good or bad, in my opinion are just looking for approval from someone else, or want to be safe and secure in the way the think the world works.

  • bmx319

    Two things.  One, a lot of those explanations up there can go hand in hand.  Free will does not exclude Ontological defense.  Why are we free to choose evil?  Because if everything were good, would goodness truly exist?  Keep in mind in the beginning there was no evil, the Fall of Man brought that.  God offers redemption through Christ, therefore the consequence of sin is eternal suffering, but the renouncing of sin is eternal life.  Also, God's justice is perfect, as He is a perfect being.  He defines everything.


    Secondly, using human logic to try to understand certain aspects of God is great.  However, sometimes we get carried away and forget one thing, man is not the pinnacle of the universe.  A creature that only uses somehwere around 10% of its brain? The pinnacle creature of the universe?  good one.  That's something that we often forget, our logic is not infallible.  You see, we try to understand God withing limitations like Time and Space.  We actually cannot think outside of the box on this becaues our minds cannot function or even formulate ideas about realities excluding time and space.  Therefore, our knowledge of God is confined, for He has created these things, and is therefore above it all.  for all u logically based scientific skeptics out there, take a gander at this.  Logic is based on human concepts, but human concepts are nowhere near absolute.  Say for instance, that a painter painted on a canvas a grecian urn (yeaaa, im referring to the Grecian Urn poem).  Outsiders can, all they want, look at the painting and try to guess the painter's true intentions (the noumena, phenoumena arguement).  However, without his insight, they will never know its truth, its meaning.  That refers to beings of equal mental status.  Now think of comparing our logic and understanding to that of an infinately superior being.  In fact, the word infinite doesnt fit our minds well, again, limitations of time and space.  If you've followed me all this way you'll see that there are certain things, in fact, many things about God we simply cannot know here.  asking questions like this onlly bring you back to this answer, because its true, and completely logical if God exists.

  • vickevlar

    Regarding the ontological argument, I don't see why people think that the only contrast to goodness and happiness is evil and strife. To me, boredom is just as opposite to happiness and fulfillment as disaster. Beating boredom can be just as much a struggle as beating depression, and it can arise in a world where there are no truly horrible things so I don't think you "need badness to have goodness."  

  • daily_trusting

    I got to read this while running late lol  so two cents then Im on my way.  As far as I can tell you didnt talk about the necessity of evil.  Without evil in the world, would we even care if there was a God or not?  Would we have need of one?

    I'll be back to read other comments and to unpach this further :)

  • haloed

    Very interesting, this feels a little over my head, but I think I get it.  And I think I would be considered an Atheist as well, at this point.

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