Sunday, 22 March 2009
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Hypnotize
By System of a Down
see relatedWhy Do I Care About Religion?
I'm sick of being asked why atheists care so much about religion. I'm even more sick of writing out the same response over and over. So instead, I'm just being lazy and throwing a video on. If the question ever comes up on my site again, feel free to link whoever is asking to this post.Summarized by bryangoodrich for the post:
"I care because ...
(1) Cannot join the Boy Scouts as an atheist
(2) Cannot Testify in seven different states nor hold office as an atheist
(3) Bush Sr. doesn't see atheists as citizens
(4) Blue Laws, e.g., cannot sell items on Sunday in some states
(5) "Under God" in pledge of allegiance
(6) "In God We Trust" is on our currency
(7) Christians and Christian Organizations try to make the USA out to be a Christian nation, even though we weren't founded as such.
(8) Our Founding Fathers were not Christians.
(9) Religions trying to control what is taught in public schools
(10) National policy decisions (e.g., stem cell policies) being influenced by religious beliefs.
(11) Theocracies with WMDs and fanatics blowing themselves up--religion-backed terrorism.
(12) Atheists are the least trusted minority in America because they lack belief in God.
(13) Irrational beliefs challenging my freedoms, changing history and threaten my safety and security."
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Comments (59)
Nice.
- John
That video makes a lot of good points.
You said it, video!
I prefer this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPGaIV5-HkIt's very angry, but true.
So are we saying that atheism is one giant ad hominem?
wyle i am a theist & a jew i agree with you on this poynt 100%
i recd this
@randomneuralfirings - Note that this isn't about why a person is an atheist, but why atheists often feel the need to comment on religion. If nobody was using religion in these ways, I highly doubt there would be any number of vocal atheists.
Ain't that the truth!
*cheers*
You're on a roll, Godless.
Good video! In fact, even though I am Christian, some of that bothers me as well. Especially when people say things about this being founded as a Christian nation. To me, Will Smith said it best in his song "Ms. Holy Roller", "This country was founded by Puritans, for the expressed purpose of
oppression-free worship" and opression free means opression free for you as well. It doesn't mean it's a Christian nation, and I've wanted to punch people in the face for saying such.
You are an amazing writer and quite an intellectual in my opinion. I was fascinated by the post where you mentioned your view that religion isn't all bad: "For every bin Laden there's a Gandhi." It seems that many of your posts tend to argue against Biblical claims. If you claim to be an atheist, then do you deny the existence of God by any definition of the word "God" (which I believe can be entirely personal), or are you mainly against the concept of God as a supreme being with the ability to judge our moral behavior?
Good video! Thanks for sharing.
I took the liberty (feel free to edit into post) of listing them in order as the video presents. Summaries, of course:
"I care because ...
(1) Cannot join the Boy Scouts as an atheist
(2) Cannot Testify in seven different states nor hold office as an atheist
(3) Bush Sr. doesn't see atheists as citizens
(4) Blue Laws, e.g., cannot sell items on Sunday in some states
(5) "Under God" in pledge of allegiance
(6) "In God We Trust" is on our currency
(7) Christians and Christian Organizations try to make the USA out to be a Christian nation, even though we weren't founded as such.
(8) Our Founding Fathers were not Christians.
(9) Religions trying to control what is taught in public schools
(10) National policy decisions (e.g., stem cell policies) being influenced by religious beliefs.
(11) Theocracies with WMDs and fanatics blowing themselves up--religion-backed terrorism.
(12) Atheists are the least trusted minority in America because they lack belief in God.
(13) Irrational beliefs challenging my freedoms, changing history and threaten my safety and security."
There were, of course, more facts provided in the five minutes.
My response, since I do wonder why we even care about religions doing whatever, as many atheists seem to paint them as being the bane on society. This list doesn't really help target the issue. Just look at, (1), (2), (4), (9), (10), and maybe even (5) and (6). These all have next to nothing to do with religion per se, as it has to do with the institutions of our society. The fact the Boy Scouts get public funding and can act like a not-so-equal employer by deciding who to let in based on religious belief is not a religious issue per se, so much as it is an issue with them getting public funding contrary to our laws about "separation." What's the solution? Either stop them getting public support as such, or control who they let in. As a private organization, they can be unequal in who they let in. That's fine. That's freedom. They should not be getting public funding. Is that a religious issue? Not at all! Same goes for what a business chooses to do on Sunday. If they don't want to sell something on Sunday, that is their right. Do you see me bitching about Chinese food restaurants being closed on Sundays or Mondays? Well, maybe when it inconveniences me, but I'm not attacking them like "I'm an atheist and your religion is shitting on my freedoms." That'd be nonsense. The same goes for those list of arguments.
Therefore, as I said, they're not religious issues so much as they're institutional issues. There's an easy heuristic we might employ to demonstrate this. If religious people can be just as pissed off as atheists about this, then it's not a religious issue. There is nothing in the context of these issues that is particularly "religious" since they are clearly open to any religious person to find problems with. As citizens, we can all raise concerns with (1), (2), (4), (5), (6), (9) and (10). That cuts out almost half.
The rest of the issues are basically "I don't like your opinion. Just look at (3), (7), (8), (12). Who gives a shit? Seriously. Does it feed into the institutional problems? Sure, but that's how opinion works. Are they particularly religious? Not really. They're Christian. That is something we seem to forget in these "atheists v religious" debates. It really is an "atheist v Christian" debate, save for whenever someone wants to say Muslims are all evil terrorists, neglecting the fact that even if 99% of terrorists are Muslim, that might only be 0.01% of all Muslims, which is really the only issue raised by (11). There are many, though, that would argue that the middle-eastern issues are not religious per se, either. We might think of it as a "ghetto" problem on the international stage. We certainly don't want to be so ignorant as to think all black people are just criminal minded thugs because they are oppressed, live in certain conditions and have as their sole prospect in life to follow in the footsteps of other "urban lifestyles." Well, the same applies here internationally. That is a simplification, but it isn't wholly unrepresentative. Therefore, I don't see what the big deal is about (3), (7), (8) and (12) are about. (12) is just laughable. It's like saying "the man" is keeping me down. No they're not. Culture and society are. If your argument is against culture and society, well, welcome to reality. That's just an unqualified chip on one's shoulder.
That leaves (13). It seems to carry the weight of the two classes of issues I addressed above, so if it's generality were broken down, they would likely fit in with the other two responses I gave.
Thus, I don't see what the issue is with religion itself. Religion has been a central cultural aspect of human society for as long as we've known about human societies. These aren't new issues, and they're not even particularly religious issues. Sure, religion is involved, but it makes no more sense to say "religion is trying to cure cancer because a local chapter of a protestant church held a fund raiser for cancer research."
Note: Another heuristic to use is what would the debate be against if we changed the context of these criticisms to another group, say, communists? We wouldn't have "atheists v communism" would we? We'd still just have "citizens looking out for their best rational interests as a collective." That is the real issue, not religion. We simply point the finger at religion generally, even when it is rather one specific group or persons. That's painting with a large brush if I've ever seen it.
@mileyfan08 - me too (to your whole comment).
i think most of those things are ridiculous. because even if you are a Christian and believe in the bible (both of which i am/do), the bible never once says, "go start a nation and make everyone behave the same way as you whether they agree with you or not." it only says to live an authentic lifestyle that reflects what we believe and while we should not be shy about our beliefs/views/opinions, forcing other people to live by our standards when they don't share our passions is dumb and pointless.
i could go off on that, i guess, but this is your blog (not mine) and i think i've made my feelings clear.
:)
@bryangoodrich - very interesting points. i think i might agree here as well.
:)
Also note, I love the argument that it is some how religion that makes people irrational. Trust me, people are stupid. People get really stupid in mindless masses. There are always going to be stupid people. The picture the atheist tries to paint with that argument is that if we removed religion, people all of a sudden become rational and smart. No they don't. That same dumbass who thinks the stupid things they think is still going to be an idiot when it comes to politics, economics, their daily lives or anything else they'll try and have a point on. Religion just happens to be one cultural thing they happen to buy into. Even the most "rational" person buys into stupid shit. Saying "at least I don't believe in God" doesn't make a dumbass any smarter when they believe in X, Y and Z which is also moronic, and that includes some atheists! It's rather scapegoating to focus on religion in general (especially when it is centrally just an issue with American Christians) when the problem is more systemic, more institutional and more cultural than anything. So as I alluded to above, the issues raised in the points listed are not bad points to be concerned about. The point is that any concerned citizen, including Christiand and "those religious fellas" generally, can and maybe even should be concerned with those issues. To point the finger at religion, religious doctrine, or the religious institutions is to paint with way too large a brush and completely miss the real issue with where the blame ought to be pointed. The error that follows from that is to link the religious doctrine--the belief--with the activities, decisions and second-order beliefs of the religious person with the errors of society. The atheist painting that picture draws the conclusion that "belief in God" implies "restrict funding to stem cell research." Sure, some say that, but it is by no means systemic to religion. Hell, any moron can make that assertion. Sure, the reasons are backed by their religious belief, but a stupid person can use any stupid reason to argue a stupid point. That stupidity isn't the consequence of "belief in God" and that implication is far from nontrivial.
Frankly when I see videos like that, I think, "Melodramatic much?" For better or worse, I care because atheists group together to discuss it, and it's fun being part of this minority. It's communal. If they didn't, then I would treat religion the same as I treat every other thing in society that I think is stupid, like organized sports or reality television- I'd ignore it. Well, I'd ignore it when I can and when I'm forced to deal with it I'd make fun of it because I enjoy doing that. I suppose this isn't the answer people are looking for because it downplays the importance of being a vocal atheist, but at least I'm honest lol.
Boy scouts is a private organization. Most of the laws are a result of legislation put together by representatives elected by a consensus of the majority of the people. Ironic how consensus is one of the big arguments for evolution and global warming, but you seem to reject it in this case. Seems hypocritical to me.
Kris, you definitely need to watch this video. I know you'll get a gigantic laugh out of it. Its titled "What does Neil Tyson think about intelligent design".
I would've jsut sent you a message, but I know you'll read this comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPLn9nv26NM
I had no clue that they restricted athiests in any way. Which by the way is complete and utter bullshit... I like to state the obvious.
@interstellarmachine - However, the consensus involved with evolution and global warming comes from the consensus of experiments and evidence, not because a group of politicians got together and voted that way. Big difference.
I love how church and state are supposed to be separated, while they obviously aren't.
Yeah, well. Life is tough for all persecuted religious minorities.
I get the - exact - same - stupid thing from Christians, over and over again. That's why, as you've probably noticed, I have a disclaimer link at the end of most of my entries, which goes to another entry which in turn has multiple links that answer all sorts of typical questions posed by believers. I put it in big letters in bright colors, and they STILL ask me the same stuff. Then they're all amazed if I get pissed, and then often don't even read the link even after I directly post it in my reply to their comments. Religious believers are some of the most dense people out there.
Fair enough. Isn't the issue, really, that some group of people attempts to limit or control your ability to conduct your life in the way you deem correct? Lotta that going around. Atheist/Christians. All same/same in that regard. I've seen some pretty heinous things from religious peple, but I've seen precisely the same things (and worse, frankly) from non-religious folk. There is no group of people you could identify that doesn't have a fair mix of reasonable, rational adults secure enough to live and let live and insecure children with egos too weak to abide another's differing views.