Thursday, 02 July 2009
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Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment?
By Tim Callahan
see relatedFailed Prophecies
Not so long ago I was having a conversation (if you can call it that) with the Rev. Dwight Knight, who told me that every single prophecy in the Bible, with the exception of those about the end times, has been fulfilled. I decided to research that a bit. Here's what I've got:
Jeremiah informs us that God will smite all the Israelites migrating into Egypt (42:15-18). Even so, I think we can be reasonably certain that people from Israel have journeyed into Egypt without suffering God's wrath. Egypt isn't even the enemy of Israel it was in Biblical times, so what reason would God have for a jaunt into another neighboring country now?
Isaiah predicts that five cities in Egypt will undergo a language conversion to the Canaanite tongue (19:18). Of course, since this never happened, and since the language of the Canaanites is now dead, I don't see it happening any time in the near future. Of course, I'm not a true prophet.
Isaiah just a few verses later fortells of an alliance between Israel, Egypt and Assyria (19:23-25). Since Assyria is no longer a country, the odds of this prophecy being fulfilled have dropped considerably. And if Assyria were to reform, it wouldn't be the same Assyria that Isaiah, in all his God-given prescience, predicted.
Ezekiel purports God making claims that the Ammonites will be "no more remembered" (21:32). The difficulty with accepting this bold declaration is that it is printed in the Bible, which means that for the memory of the Ammonites to be truly erased, the Bible would have to be erased as well. Which would make the prophecy known to nobody, and hence useless. Apparently Ezekiel's God didn't take Logic 101.
I think that's enough for this evening's lesson. Your insights, class?
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Comments (32)
LOL.
you are a) too smart; b) too learned; and c) too studious for me, which is why I don't stop by so often but I think our political views are quite similar although I am not godless I am Hindu
so I am like, I guess you could say, God Inundated! Either way, just wanted to say, Hi. from a lazy former scholar and god inundated liberal, your friend, Loonsounds
Lol at the cartoon, applaud at the writing. :)
Someone's just going to say that "Assyria" and "Caananite tongue" and whatnot are symbolic. Prophecies are only as literal as the reader wishes them to be.
The cartoon was icing on the cake. Well done
I'm waiting to here, "They just haven't happened...*drum roll* yet."
Sigh. It's so predictable. (Now I just have to wait.)
Failed Bible Prophesies
[Jeremiah informs us that God will smite all the Israelites migrating into Egypt (42:15-18).]
Situation specific, please re-read surrounding chapters for context.
[Isaiah predicts that five cities in Egypt will undergo a language conversion to the Canaanite tongue (19:18). ]
Please check out this link
[Isaiah just a few verses later foretells of an alliance between Israel, Egypt and Assyria (19:23-25).]
Greek Empire, Roman Empire anyone?
[if Assyria were to reform, it wouldn't be the same Assyria]
Is today's Israel the same Israel?
[Ezekiel purports God making claims that the Ammonites will be "no more remembered" (21:32). ]
Is anyone here an Ammorite? Anyone remember knowing an Ammorite? Does anyone remember if they even have Lot in their bloodline? Anyone remember their grandfather talking about the good old Ammorite days?
My Apologies
John 4:18 says: " . . . for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly." That verse doesn't seem to say anything about fear. Which version is this from?
Sorry about all of the questions, but I must know that your assertions were somewhat researched before I can make a final judgment about my faith based on your post.
@helvetebrann - It is easy to predict responses when this has all been said before.
I Don't think Rev. Knight did his research... is there a God 101 class.. I think after reading this I might want to take it for shits and giggles... lol...
Thanks for the read.. I diffently enjoyed...
Some of your questions aren't based on poor reading skills, which is an improvement from the past. They pretty much all used to be based on poor reading skills. The cartoon is obviously based on poor reading skills. I've noticed that most of your sympathetic (i.e., atheist) readers only listen to one side of an argument before making their decision, which is intellectually hasty. Someone who is wise listens to both sides of an argument before making a decision, which shows intellectual patience. Does the continual intellectual haste of many of your sympathetic readers ever bother you?
Where did you get your questions?
@interstellarmachine -
1. Verse 11 governs the specific context of the first prophecy. Just focusing what you said onto the relevant verse. Tekton had the answer for this issue.
2. Good explanation for this prophecy.
3. The greek and roman empires weren't alliances, but compositions by conquest. The Assyrian people group still exists. This prophecy may have future fulfillment.
4. This was an obvious reply. Kind of surprised that Krisko didn't anticipate it.
5. Perhaps the Bible and other texts referencing the Ammonites will be eliminated after Christians are raptured. This one may have future fulfillment.
The cartoon is obviously based on poor reading skills; it doesn't require a serious reply, nor do I think that one was expected.
Well done.
@helvetebrann - Prophecies have to be unfulfilled before they are fulfilled. You can't really claim that "it hasn't happened yet" is just making excuses.
@soccerdadforlife - 3. I had in mind the alliance between Ptolemy and Seleucus who ruled these territories. I am rusty on my 400ff BC history, I should have checked and been more specific. Future fulfillment is definitely a good point.
THE word of god sure is subject to interpretation. Why is it that god's word isn't clear? He'd make a piss poor leaderr of a business, an army, or even a kindergarten class.
The cartoon was in error. It isn't John 4:18, rather 1 John 4:18
I recommend Bart Ehrman's book, God's Problem, to all your friends, especially the intellectually patient.
*tosses the fox in amongst the hens and giggles hysterically* I do love when someone feels like starting a massive argument. If you haven't read it, try the River of God... it's a good book on kinda the idea of a bunch of mythologies trickling together to create the myths propagated in the bible. For example, each culture seems to have a "giant flood" myth, so you take a little of this, a little of that, pick the name of "Noah" and voila! It is written though in about as unbiased a fashion as a book like that can be written.
@truthletters - Reading comprehension ftl. I'm not making excuses. I agree with GL. I was simply stating that I knew how people will respond.
@interstellarmachine - It's always easy to pick the responses to logical arguments because there's never a logical response.
@interstellarmachine - Sure, after Alexander died, his empire was split among his generals. Good point. But what is the evidence that they did form an alliance?
@helvetebrann - What would you know about logic?
@helvetebrann - yeah..."reading comprehension ftl" yourself. I never said you were making excuses.
@truthletters -
You're right; the joys of an early morning. I can and do think that simply saying that "it hasn't happened yet" is an excuse.
The invisible pink unicorn is going to rule the world. There's my prophecy. You're essentially saying that it would not be an excuse to say that because it hasn't happened yet, there's no reason it won't.
I'm sure you see that it's a little absurd.
@soccerdadforlife - lolz a personal attack. Good response.
@helvetebrann - What do you expect from a troll?
If the purpose of the prophecy is to provide credentials for the prophet--that he is speaking a message from God--then you would be correct to argue that future fulfillment is insufficient. However, if the purpose is something else, then your attack wouldn't necessarily hit the mark.
@soccerdadforlife - First off, if you're calling me a troll, I wasn't the one to make the personal attack; that was all you. If you're calling yourself a troll, well, you're the first person I've ever seen openly admit to being one.
And pray tell, how do you know what the purpose of these prophecies are? Were you there when they were given? Did the prophets come back to you and inform you themselves?
Not to mention, you failed to grasp the point of the original post. The point was that in the conversation GL was having with Rev Dwight Knight, Rev Dwight Knight said that all the prophecies of the Bible had been fulfilled; obviously incorrect. I responded (originally) by stating that those who agree with Rev would state that they will be fulfilled so it doesn't matter. And somehow you're arguing with me that this is all about the intention of the prophecy? I think I missed a step in your thinking process.
Hahaha! I love the post and the fights in your comments is pretty amusing too!
@helvetebrann - Umm, that was a joke about the troll--me being one, that is.
The purpose of text (including prophecies) is discovered from context.
No, I got the main point and Krisko's decoration of it. I wasn't disagreeing with the main point that Knight was hyperbolic in his claim. Your own pink unicorn straw man was irrelevant, which I explained.
@soccerdadforlife - Really? You did? That's strange because I have a hard time getting what you just said from what you did say which was: "If the purpose of the prophecy is to provide credentials for the prophet--that he is speaking a message from God--then you would be correct to argue that future fulfillment is insufficient. However, if the purpose is something else, then your attack wouldn't necessarily hit the mark."
I don't see strawman or a reference to my invisible pink unicorn in there. Strange. By the way, that comment was not directed to you and was simply a point about how I feel that saying, "Well it just hasn't been fulfilled YET" is an excuse just as she would feel that me saying that the invisible pink unicorn just hasn't taken over the world YET is an excuse.
Great post.
Hm. Doubt is a gift. And the first lesson of learning is to doubt. Doubting could lead to belief, because you'd want to know the answers.
However, I am a true believer of God and I believe in the Holy Book. Of course, the Bible in itself could have mistakes because they were written by human beings. But it doesn't mean that it is false. It means that the Bible is sacred.
Some of the things in the Bible may not have happened in the past and will probably not happen in the future. But that's the beauty of it. There's always POSSIBILITY of it happening.
So, if I were you, you can doubt as much as you can. But don't also ignore the POSSIBILITY that all these things could very well happen. You're not God. God probably changed His mind and figured that He'd make all these things happen another time.