Sunday, 27 May 2012
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The Future We Will Create: Inside the World of TED
By Ted-Future We Create
see relatedIs Religion an Abusive Relatinship?
This is how Christianity felt to me at the end of my tenure as an evangelical. I truly felt like I was being brutally punished by some asshole who judged me by thoughts I couldn't control.
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Comments (54)
I've often thought it was like an abusive relationship, but not because of hell. When things are going good you're supposed to praise god and thank him, and when things suck you're supposed to take it and rationalize god apparently shitting on you. Your kid got cancer after you prayed for his safety 20 times? God must be testing you. He didn't respond well to chemo? You have to be strong and know god has a reason and loves you. He died? You'll see him again in heaven...
Imagine if you had a spouse that intentionally gave your kid cancer and sabotaged their chemotherapy and you made the same kind of excuses. I think anyone would consider that an abusive "personal relationship".
Some would have us believe god sends diseases to punish us. Using biological weapons on civillians... isn't that one of the things we went after saddam for? And he only stockpiled them, there's no proof he ever deployed them.
I often times cursed God for the "trials" he put me through. I screamed at him, rebuked him, and hated him for the longest time. I didn't understand why i was continually going through so difficult of a time. Or why someone I loved is they way he is, and it's all because of how his dad and mom was to him growing up. Why do bad things happen to good people? But also why does good things, happen to bad people?
I am not at all challenging your atheism. I respect it, just as I hope you respect my belief in Christ.
I am nothing compared to God. I am no better then a filthy rag, yet God loves me. Yet he sent his son down to die for me. What he chooses to do, will always be righteous - EVEN if i don't agree with him. Which I don't a lot of the time. I don't understand why people go through things. Heck, I don't understand why I go through things. But I still gotta praise God. Why should we only praise God when things are great? We should praise God continuously, not just in the good times - but the bad as well.
@agnophilo - I have seen your blog... and I have seen some of your responses to people - but I still don't really know what your belief is ahaha. enlighten me dear?
These are the times I wish I was not such a logical person. Logic sometimes scares me. That and I wish you were not so interesting and a good writer.
Indeed it is. It took me 27 years to figure that out, but after I left it I felt as if the weight of the world had been lifted off of me, body and spirit. It was the only way I was going to have any freedom and peace.
It came down to this: do I stay in a religion I don't believe in any longer (and always had questions about) and that won't allow me to divorce my abusive husband, or do I leave them both and explore other ways to express my spirituality, based upon beliefs I actually DO have? Experience taught me that biblegod was as abusive and hateful as the ex and neither of them deserved even the slightest bit of devotion.
Too late to make a long story short: yes. Yes it is. Not only because of the horrific cruelty their god possesses in his own nature, but because of what it causes the faithful to do in his name. The part about being punished for things beyond your control; this is in itself part of the controlling aspect of organized religion. You can not help being angry, experiencing lust or worrying about things occasionally because they are human nature. We are not automatons. Convincing us that it is sin to do that which occurs naturally in the human mind and body is an obvious 'catch 22'. If god instilled desires, needs and natural responses that are sinful then he himself is the creator of sin and he is solely responsible for what christians consider our 'fallen' nature. If he then goes on to punish humans for behaving the way he programmed us to, he is an unspeakably cruel being unworthy of worship. Either he created sin while creating everything else or he has to admit that some things are beyond his control and he is therefore not omnipotent. Can't have it both ways.
I don't believe God punishes us for the thoughts we can't control. He punishes us for the actions and thoughts we CAN control.
I think one of the biggest problems with religion is the clergy. I've seen too many that make God out to be exactly as you just described. I've also seen plenty that speak more of his loving nature. How he gave his only son for us. If we do good and work hard to follow his guidance we are eternally rewarded. I don't believe one would go to hell just for slipping up a few times.
In an abusive relationship, you get punished no matter what you do. Good, wrong, right, bad. Doesn't matter. With God, there is always a chance for eternal reward. No matter how much wrong one has done, if they repent, and honestly mean it and work to do good, they are rewarded.
I agree with @grim_truth's view. I wrote a blog kinda explaining my view of it about a week back, and how I decided to remain Christian after my own religious doubts. *shrug* If you'd want another view of things. To be clear, I still have questions and doubts about this topic. It will probably never be answered fully because no one really has the answers. :-/
The fact of Christianities inability to produce physical evidence of their god, or the absence of universal standards to cope with the fact that shit happens, produces immoral actions based upon arbitrary behavior. It's always and end justifies the means reaction to forcing the other person into submission. It's for your own good.
@JustaBrokenWing - What you say in this comment is literally EXACTLY what people say when they are in an abusive relationship. It's almost word for word verbatim. "I am worthless, I am nothing; he beats me because he loves me; I don't understand it but I know I deserve it." Seriously; you should look it up yourself if you don't believe me. Learn about what women say when their husbands beat them. You'll find it's remarkably close to what you just said.
what it came down to for me was the issue of Hell. even if i could believe and be saved, i could not accept that anyone i love who couldn't believe deserved to suffer for that. in my opinion, believing in the Christian method of salvation is implicit agreement with that method. and i could not live with that, because i know that faith has a lot to do with personal experience. it's not fair to have someone suffer for eternity for not having the right experiences at the right time. in the end, i felt like i could either be selfish and care about my own salvation... or i could go with my conscience and choose to believe that no loving deity would punish someone for things out of their control. i chose the latter.
@JustaBrokenWing - So no matter how god hurts you he is right because you're a pile of filthy rags? Yeah, not like an abusive relationship at all.
@amygwen - Why does it scare you?
@grim_truth - Many religions promise a reward or punishment after we die. It's not as though it's ever been demonstrated that it actually happens.
@flapper_femme_fatale - That's what first made me question too.
Wow... I never thought of it this way before...
@agnophilo - what comforts me, in some way, is that a lot of Christians i know believe that everyone is given a final chance after death to either accept or reject salvation. it's not very Biblical, but i do like that some are choosing to follow their consciences, rather than just what a book says.
i also prefer the Eastern Orthodox view of the afterlife. for someone who rejects God, the worst thing in the universe would be to spend eternity with God. therefore, everyone essentially goes to be with God after death. how you feel in the afterlife depends on whether you're happy about that. considering the state of my beliefs now, being with God would be something like spending time with my crazy conservative grandmother. i love her, of course... but damn, she's insane.
@flapper_femme_fatale - There's a dark side to that too, the "if the thought occurs to me then jesus is telling me it's so via our 'personal relationship'" theology. It gives people license to make their religion softer and kinder, but it also gives them license to write off their bigotry, hatred, egotism etc as gospel truth and prop their opinions up as god's infallible word.
But yeah, I think that if there were a god it wouldn't be the petty, tribal sort of god that people imagine.
Absolutely. I've made this comparison many times. The message is exactly the same: "You are worthless. You need me. I beat you and threaten you because I love you. You should be ashamed to have anything in your life that isn't about me, and I'll hurt you if I find out about it." And perhaps an even more compelling similarity is the way the faithful defend their god's apparent abuse. That they deserve it, that they've brought it on themselves, that it helps them learn.
my questions and subsequent personal decision to leave was based on other reasoning. i've never looked back. i do see the fear and guilt often used to keep people frightened and submissive. i see it coming from other people and authoritarian hierarchies.
I think these are all good questions. I've had them myself, and struggled with some of them for years.
I like when people are honest about their questions about God. One of the things that bothers me, is when people do have these questions, but won't talk about them. That's unhealthy..and breeds resentment, and I believe, false beliefs.
I will tell you some of my story about my struggle, and I sincerely hope it could possibly be constructive or helpful to this discussion. I was raised in an evangelical Christian home; I went to a Bible church ever since I was an infant. I began to seriously question the goodness of God as young as 12, when my grandmother who was the kindest woman I'd ever known, died very suddenly at the fairly young age of 73. I wondered why he would do such a thing; I couldn't let the thought rest. Even it was for her good, or even for my ultimate good, I couldn't believe he would hurt me so deeply *on purpose*. A distrust of God was planted in my heart, and it only grew over the next couple years.
I brought my questions to my dad, who is a youth pastor, but an unusually learned youth pastor. He offered me the best answers he could, and from there, told me to study all possible answers on my own. He actually helped me find books on other religions and philosophies, including those arguing for atheism, and told me that I will only ever be satisfied with an answer if I've found it on my own. So, I began to study.
The first questions that I needed to hurdle were: the problem of evil in the world, and the problem of sin in the world. It seemed there needed to be justice for sin, and an explanation for the suffering in the world, even if Christianity couldn't provide it.
Here's what I ran into: all religions and philosophies, except biblical Christianity, seem to downplay both the existence of and the seriousness of human sin. Either it doesn't exist, or it doesn't matter much, OR, it matters a great deal and the weight of being "good" is placed on the human's shoulders, evne if he can't be good. OR--he can undo his badness by trying to be good after being bad. Even the certain branches of Christianity seemed to be this way--Catholicism, for instance, places the burden of sin on humanity, saying that if we are just good enough, only then can we get into heaven. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because it seems that if sin is enough to separate man from God, then any existence of sin whatsoever in someone's life, past or future, can't be undone by another good deed. If it is a matter of justice, than it is a matter of punishment as well. A man who murdered someone is let go just because he does something good afterward--he must be brought to atone for his crime, whatever the punishment may be. To do otherwise, even if a man is a saint from thereon out, would be be to botch justice for whoever was killed in the first place. It doesn't seem fair that Hitler, for example, after he killed all those people, would be just "forgiven" because he is sorry for it, and decides to feed orphans afterward. That isn't justice. Someone has to pay for the crime.
Even Eastern religions who attempt to set up some sort of "payment" and justice for sin don't quite solve the problem. I read the Bhagavad Gita, the ancient Hindu text explaining some major tenets of the Hindu religion, and it seemed to say that whatever injustice a man committed would be put on himself in the next life, which seems fair. But it creates a problem by saying that there is no injustice, no evil, no good--there is only contentment and existence. On one side, it says there is justice and that we should care about the good--on the other side, it says that we shouldn't care about anything except *not* caring for this world. To undo all ties from this world, all care of this world, all love/emotion for this world is true "goodness", and only in doing that, will we reach Moksha (Oneness with Ramah, or the Universe, where there is no separation). Until then, we will be reincarnated. But that doesn't seem to solve the problem of evil--if by denying evil, that is solving the problem. There is not justice in ignoring injustice--and I don't see how that is any better than performing injustice in the first place.
In atheism, there seems to be a great emphasis on justice at times--on human rights, on letting people live and die in freedom. But there also seems to be a vehemence against any set morality, or any "good". Plato, an atheist/possible deist, argued for their being a set Good--a Form of justice, truth, and beauty that was definite, that we could be aware of if we searched hard enough. He only believed that, in so far as he was a deist. I believe that's true. But in atheism, in which all things are purely material and cause and effect, there can *never* be any such understanding of the world. Value, injustice, rights, and freedom are merely inventions of society, with no ultimate purpose or foundation in reality. How can the great injustices, the great evil in the world have any true explanation in such an understanding of human nature/reality? There is an outcry, at times, for how evil the world is, how selfish it is, and yet, there seems to be an outcry against any set morality--any set justice. Justice and morality are relative, depending on circumstance. Hitler wasn't "wrong", in any inherent or concrete sense of the word--he just happened to go against culture's "wrong" at the time. Where is the justice in such an understanding of "wrong"? It wasn't satisfying to me. It didn't seem an honest explanation of the deep human sense of justice, meaning, and value, and lack thereof (sense of such things) in men like Hitler. I would say he was, in a concrete way irrelevant to "culture" but inherently so, wrong. But that cannot be said by an atheist.
I came back around to biblical Christianity.
I studied what is *really* said in the New Testament. The New Testament lays out evil in this way: men were created for relationship with God. God lays out what is right and wrong. He created men with the ability to follow him, or not follow him. Men chose to follow their own desires, even if they were against his set morality (Romans 1). By doing so, and because God is a perfect God, they broke off their relationship with God by chosing against his ways, which are the Ultimate Good (very reflective of Platonic thought). There was evil in the world--not because God wanted it, but because for there to be true relationship, he had to give humans the ability to choose. Some chose Him. Some didn't. But because Adam and Eve in the beginning chose against God and ruined the original relationship, all men were separate from God after that, and the good that God created as ruined in part because of sin that entered the world and human nature. This made it so that even men who followed God overall, still sinned, and thus, that sin had to be paid for somehow, or else they could not have that perfect relationship that existed before sin entered the world.
From there, the New Testament explains that this rent relationship between God and man weighed on God so much, that he wanted to solve this somehow. Instead of having men pay for every one of their sins, which would cause only in their eternal death and make relationship with him impossible, he found a way to have their sins paid for, while making it possible for the relationship between God and man to be made new. How did he solve this..?
He took the wrath, the payment that had to be allotted somehow, onto Himself. He came as man, so that the wrath could be poured on himself. That was the whole point of Christ's coming. He drank the "drought" himself.
Christ's "work" on the cross, was that he died as a sacrifice in the place of man, as a payment, that would satisfy inherent justice, and would also create a way for man to know God and have that relatinship, that continues even into the afterlife.
This is obtained by faith in Christ's work--believing that he did that for us, and living life under him as our leader and King. But more than that happens--more than just "going to heaven". In fact, as I read the New Testament, I realized that that was only a small reason for Christ coming, more an after thought. The greater point was that we would have a renewed relationship with God--that we could pray with him, and even be given his Spirit to live with hope and new life. For his glory.
I also came to realize that God's "glory", is really, him being fully known to the human soul. That can only be done if we believe in Christ's work.
..Christianity seemed to make the most sense of two problems: of the justice concerning human evil, and the forgiveness that must happen for human sin because even our goodness cannot atone for our past injustice. It also presents the rewewal of human hearts to be good, as a picture of the renewed earth that will happen after the end of time--it says in the Bible that Christ came to make "all things new"--so that the picture of the human heart being renewed, is a direct picture of the earth and how it will be made new so that no suffering, no famine, no hurricanes, no ruin will ever happen again. It's almost as though the two problems: human sin, and natural disasters, are all from the same root problem, and God will fix both because of the work of Christ.
God made the world to run on him as its source of life, fulfillment, and joy, the most loving thing he could do is to command us to worship him.
I don't think comparing an all-powerful and loving God to a husband/boyfriend who hits or degrades his spouse is quite appropriate. If the God of Christianity is real, then he made man with much care, has instructed him on how to do what is right, and desires his fellowship and love, so much so that he would come down himself and take the form of a servant, and serve those who hate him and who spit upon him, and die for them. Anyone who goes to hell is because they refuse to turn to the one that loves them. They don't want heaven. Anyone who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there will not be there. If they don't want Christ now, they won't want him for eternity. In fact, people would rather call on rocks and mountains to fall on them than to submit to the Lord. That says a lot about our depravity, if you ask me.
I think you are quite an intelligent person which is why I'm so surprised by that analogy. If we were made to worship God, and that is our purpose, than to do anything else is foolish and is cosmic treason. To desire anything else is stupid. If God is smart enough to create such a complex universe and to breathe in us the breath of life, then he's a little more worthy of consideration and of worship than an abusive spouse. In fact, if the God of the Bible is real, he desires for husbands to love and treasure their wives, just as Christ loves and treasures his church. And if there is no God, then there is no ultimate moral law (Richard Dawkins has even said this), so you can't really say that what the Christian God is doing is wrong or what anyone is doing is wrong. You may not like it, but you can't say that it's wrong because there's no objective truth.
Perhaps a better analogy is how a father loves his child. He cherishes him and wants the best for him. He provides for him, is kind to him, and gives him everything, and every single time, the son spits in the face of his father. He takes advantage of his kindness, he hates him, he is selfish and lives for no one but himself. Another one. A husband who loves his wife, yet she cheats on him again and again and again. He gives her everything and she throws it on the ground and stomps it. His love and devotion is only returned with hatred and hostility. That is an appropriate analogy. That's how we treat our heavenly father. That's how we treat our creator. Yet, here we are, still alive and breathing. Mercy is being shown, even at this moment. If you wanted things to be fair, then you would be born, you would sin once, and then you would die and go to hell for eternity. Careful about demanding justice from God. You just might get it.
And I'm not so sure how to say this without being blunt and honest, especially via internet, but I'll just say it. Most of these commentors have no idea what they're talking about in regards to Christianity. No wonder they don't think it makes sense--they're wrong about it. It's good to read the Bible on your own, seek commentary, challenge hard questions by asking someone who actually knows what they're talking about, etc. I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't think it was logical. I think it's very logical and the best explanation for how the world works. I'm not saying, "Just try Jesus," but I am saying, know what you're talking about before you slander it.
@Jenny_Wren - I was really encouraged by reading that. I like how you've done your research. I, too, have struggled with questions that, if left unanswered, I may have put Christianity behind me. But I read book after book, searched the scriptures, prayed, and set out to, in a sense, try to prove Christianity wrong, all the while knowing that if Christianity is true, and I am truly a believer, I can never be plucked from His hand. Some books were Christian and others were by Richard Dawkins. I wanted to really put it under the microscope. Think like an atheist, as you will. I struggled with the problem of evil for months and months and finally found the answer I was looking for. It had been in scripture all along but I let my hardened heart get in the way of my understanding.
All that to say, again, I was truly encouraged by reading your post. I'm so glad you are able to answer tough questions like this, because most of the Christian community just says, "Well you just have to have faith" or they don't answer at all. Our congregations need to know how to answer tough questions because we live in a society that demands truth.
@jessispeaks@revelife - I agree. Just another in a long list of straw man arguments made by atheists.
@pnrj - there's a difference between an abusive relationship and a relationship with God. He's our divine creator. An abusive boyfriend/husband is a mere human being who has no right.
I have been in an abusive home and in an abusive relationship.
@Jenny_Wren - The human condition is to strive, for whatever we deem in life is worth striving for. How utterly boring a perfect afterlife in heaven would actually be. There is no god that is going to come down and fix all our human problems - we have to do that ourselves, and we will never completely accomplish that goal, but that hardly means the effort is without ultimate purpose. Have you ever really thought about just how long eternity is? Now imagine it's in a "perfect place" where no one wants/needs anything, there is nothing left to strive for at all. How long can you suffer complete boredom before you completely lose your mind?
@Melissa___Dawn - The Bible would argue that the human condition is to strive for the Good--or, for the Ultimate Good. Some people have different struggles and different ways of finding it--but the Bible would also argue, that the ultimate Good is knowing God. That we are most satisfied in knowing Him more and more.
So, that would mean that because God is endless, our knowing him would be endless--and we would be more and more, deeper and deeper satisfied.
I just didn't like being made to feel like less than I was. I hear a lot of Christians say things like, "I'm nothing without God," or "Without God, I can do nothing." Well, I got tired of saying that and trying to believe it. I am just as much a person, just as "worthy" of happiness or life or whatever, without Christ as I was with Christ.
@jessispeaks@revelife - "If you wanted things to be fair, then you would be born, you would sin once, and then you would die and go to hell for eternity."
That Christians believe this is among the clearest demonstrations of the accuracy of this post's analogy, whether it's because they truly believe that without "God", they are somehow deserving of something so horrible, or because any kind of deity claiming to be benevolent would intentionally create beings that, by their nature, are supposedly deserving of something so horrible, and thus in such desperate need of salvation that their only alternative is compliance.