Thursday, 31 May 2012

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    Am I a Bigot?

    On my last post about a church publicly sticking up for gay rights, I was quickly called a bigot in the comment section. Let's see how it got started:

    @soccordadforlife:

    Piss on that church.

    Here's an atheist who's opposed to gay marriage.  Good for her.

    @GodlessLiberal (in reply):

    Now that I've blocked Curtis, you're just trying to take his place as ignorant bigot-in-chief, aren't you?

    I recall a time when you attempted civil discourse. I guess we all grow up, huh? Or in your case, down.

    Yes, my response is a bit harsh, but this individual and I go back for years. He used to be someone who attempted to use links, data, numbers and "facts" (we often debated creationism) to back up his point of view. In the last year most of his dialog has devolved to the first line of his comment: "Piss on that church."


    He came back at me:

    You may pretend that it's civil to call those who are against homosexuality and homosexual marriage "hate-filled," "narrow-minded," "deceptive," "judgmental," and "manipulative," but anyone who has at least two neurons will recognize that you are being quite inflammatory and practicing those very things yourself.

    Then you go and call me a bigot, which is uncivil and hypocritical, being as you're bigoted against 1. God, 2. those who believe God when He says that homosexuality is wrong, and 3. truth. You, like that false church, are "judgmental, narrow-minded, hateful, deceptive, and manipulative;" you're obviously only pretending to be civil.  You're far more bigoted than I will ever be.

    Homosexuality is a sin; advocating homosexuality, including the tolerance of it, is a far worse sin.

    I think that many Christians who I am friendly with here on Xanga know that I understand that many people who don't support gay marriage are not "hate-filled." I have, on occasion, used "narrow-minded" when people use nothing but the Bible to support this belief. If you are judging someone's lifestyle as a sin, then that is the definition of being "judgmental." And the only people I've called "deceptive" and "manipulative" are the politicians who exploit the anti-gay sentiment simply to get votes. Of course, he could be implying that I created the billboard myself, and thus am responsible for everything it says:


    He then accuses me of being bigoted against:

    1) "God".

    Simply not true. I don't believe in him, how can I be bigoted against him? I'm also not bigoted against bigfoot, unicorns, Thor or good Justin Bieber songs.

    2) "those who believe God when He says that homosexuality is wrong"

    Again, not true. You've obviously heard the adage, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." Well, I like to follow the mantra "Love the believer, hate the belief." My problem is much less with the people who quietly disagree with homosexuality, but with the people who lean more towards the Westboro Baptist Church persuasion. Or people who disown friends and family for coming out of the closet. And I have a HUGE problem with people who use their personal religious convictions to influence the government to deny people their life. Fifty years ago, much of America believed that interracial marriage was an affront to God and the Bible. Pointing out that these people are on the wrong side of civil rights isn't bigotry.

       

    3) "truth"

    Vague and Loborn-esque in its grandiosity. If you're talking about truth when I discuss homosexuality in American politics or quoting the Bible, feel free to actually point out when I lie. Maybe that's the reason you've gotten so vitriolic. In the words of a friend of mine, "Nothing pisses me off more than arguing with someone who knows what they're talking about!"

    "You're far more bigoted than I will ever be."

    Mirriam-Webster defines "bigot" as: "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance." By this definition, it would seem that the anti-homosexual crowd fits the bill much more than those of us fighting for equal civil rights for all.

     So what do you think? Am I a bigot?

Comments (52)

  • justjase

    I think you're passionate about your views - which may come off to some at times as harsh - but I certainly would not call you a bigot. I've encountered plenty of bigots, and you sir, are not one in my opinion.

  • Celestial_Teapot

    SDFL has a point. "Bigot" is a bit of a cheap shot. Like most other epithets, it hurts, and most times it angers or offends as to end discussion or draw it off-topic.

    I happen to agree with your use of the word. Opposition to LGBT rights is bigotry and many who do have such unsophisticated justifications as to be fairly called bigots. But for the purposes of fruitful, civil discussion, it's good to avoid the word or to only use it carefully.

    And yeah; lately, SDFL had been short and impatient with liberals and atheists. But I don't think his initial comment was one of those times. The purpose of it didn't seem to be as a knock of any particular one of us or attack any of our ideas. He mainly wanted to share his gut reaction to the pro-marriage equality billboard.

  • GodlessLiberal

    @Celestial_Teapot - I wasn't basing "bigot" on just this comment, but on his last dozen or so. Like I said, he seems to be trying to be the new Curtis.

  • Celestial_Teapot

    @GodlessLiberal - That may be true, but it's more helpful to type that assessment in words rather than wrapping all of that in the single word, bigot. (But you have a point. There comes a point where an individual isn't due the effort of an explaination and we should just come out and say how we feel.)

    "Like I said, he seems to be trying to be the new Curtis."

    Ha! His choice adjatives in the reply comment was eeriely Curtinian (hateful being amongst them). Yeah, he sure comes off LoBorn-like, but I feel better knowing there is a brain and unarticulated reasons behind his curmudgeon

  • Randy7777

    I havent' felt any hateful words from you - just passionate answers  in disagreement. 

  • whyzat

    It's one of those words that have been thrown around so much that their meanings have been lost to many people. Outside the inflammatory arena,  the word "artisan" as an example. "Authentic" is another one. We don't usually look up words before we use them, so we sometimes use them improperly.

  • RazielV

    In a way you asked me this very question on my Anti-Zealot weblog entry. My answer remains the same. 

    No.

  • supanamja

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-46aA4Yarepc/TV7EhLxOJ1I/AAAAAAAAEEI/kZYQTJjbYfI/s1600/arguing_on_the_internet.jpg


    Just sayin....
    It's just better not to get into arguments with people who cannot draw logical conclusions. This of course has nothing to do with his religious views but rather, it is most likely due to poor genetic source material. 
  • flapper_femme_fatale

    what i find painfully ironic is that, despite agreeing with the atheist, SDFL still thinks that person will burn in hell.  and i think that's the difference between bigotry and simple disagreement.  bigotry = "you're wrong" + "i hate you for being wrong"

  • In_Reason_I_Trust

    You're not a bigot.

    Suckerfucktardcuntforlife is the very definition of one. So, calling his attacks on you monumentally ironic, blind, and hypocritical would be the understatement of the ages.

  • chaospet

    "Fifty years ago, much of America believed that interracial marriage was
    an affront to God and the Bible. Pointing out that these people are on
    the wrong side of civil rights isn't bigotry."

    Exactly.

  • ZombieMom_Speaks

    Not at all. If you were a bigot you'd be fighting just as hard to stomp all over the rights of the LGBT community as some of the more vocal 'anti-everything not christian' crowd here on xanga. Have you harmed anyone who is different from you? Tried to manipulate the law to reflect your own beliefs? Have you tried to set your own set of beliefs above others for special treatment because you believe they are 'the one truth'?

    No?

    Then nope. Not a bigot.

  • GodlessLiberal

    @ZombieMom_Speaks - Or, conversely, I could be fighting to take the rights away from Christians, which would also make me a bigot. Of course, not being a bigot, I've written against state atheism before.

  • TakingxOverxMe

    You're the last person I would ever think of as a bigot.  

  • Saridactyl

    That guy and I got into it on one of your previous blogs. He's not a very pleasant person to talk to.

  • HappierHeathen

    My standard: If I read your words on purpose, you're not a bigot; If I block you from my blog, you are a bigot.You're not a bigot by my standards.

    My standards may be bigoted.

  • ShimmerBodyCream

    ohman, I see that denise pic, my tris feel flabby

  • HaphazardHuman

    A bigot? Fuck no, which is why I like reading what you have to write. I think you just encountered a brick wall of douche.

  • TiredSoVeryTired

    If you use those words to describe people and have no hint of a twinge in your stomach, then you might be a bigot.  I mean I know people very vocally against homosexuality, yet in person they treat any person with respect.  I don't understand their thought process, but since they treat gay people with common respect then their thoughts don't reflect their actions.  Considering it's America, we have all kinds of freedom, I tend to worry more about those who treat others poorly.  So, I reckon it all depends. 

    Typically I hate using harmful words towards anyone that are just mean like idiot.  But well, bigot, that's got a certain definition that is more concrete than idiot is.  So, if you feel someone is a bigot, and in this case I agree with you, then no you are not a bigot too.  Are you a hypocrite?  Well, I do reckon we all are!  I preach tolerance for those who think differently than I do, yet a raging homophobe is a total idiot in my opinion and I don't apologize for my hypocrisy, I admit it. 

  • Doubledb

    "Well, I like to follow the mantra "Love the believer, hate the belief." " = I am going to have to remember that one to share with my friend. It is funny because it is true. And well, as a Christian, I find it funny.

    I do not think you are a bigot, in fact, the guy calling you one might be one himself (I cant tell for sure form his comments, but he might be borderline). I really liked your graphic in reply to point number 2. I keep trying to tell some of my very conservative Christians that if we dont advocate freedom for all, even those who believe differently from us, we risk losing our own freedom. I mean, times change, and soon white people will be a minority in a place that opressed others and called them illegal immigrants and such. the one true thing about hisotry is no one had power forever, and if we are not careful the tables could turn and then it will be our beliefs being disrespected. then I will say, I TOLD YOU SO to all of them, who though legislating Christian beliefs was always good.

  • brown_buffalo

    You're not a bigot. As if I or anyone else needs to tell you that. 


    The point we need to drive home about the entire gay spectrum of social issues is that it hurts no one, it forces itself on no one. It's a matter of either denying some people their constitutional right to pursue happiness or not. So what legitimate reason would anyone have to deny them the same rights and privileges we all enjoy?
    I have yet to see a legitimate reason put out. 
  • LKJSlain

    Hey now! ... You're a rock star. :P 

    Look, everyone is a bit of a bigot in one way or another. 

    But, you can tell whoever they flaming person was (I believe another Loborn) that I am a born again Christian, and a pastor's kid and you and I get along great. ^_^ 

    There's no need for "words"- ya know? Discussion = great. Flaming attitudes are just... well...flaming ;) 

  • BoulderChristina

    "

    Well, I like to follow the mantra "Love the believer, hate the belief." My problem is much less with the people who quietly disagree with homosexuality, but with the people who lean more towards the Westboro Baptist Church persuasion. Or people who disown friends and family for coming out of the closet. And I have a HUGE problem with people who use their personal religious convictions to influence the government to deny people their life. Fifty years ago, much of America believed that interracial marriage was an affront to God and the Bible. Pointing out that these people are on the wrong side of civil rights isn't bigotry." - I agree with every word.

     Sometimes I think people forget the meaning of words. 


    Definition of BIGOT: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
    It doesn't appear to me that you are intolerant of people who disagree with homosexuality, but that you disagree with people who fight against the civil rights of homosexuals. I don't think that qualifies you as a bigot, but I am no grammarian. 
  • UTRow1

    Like most right-wing, whack job arguments SDFL makes, they fall apart pretty quickly if you start by assessing whether or not he uses his own words correctly. 

    SDFL claims you are a "bigot." Meriam-Webster's Dictionary defines a bigot as "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance." 

    One of the key aspects of that definition, to me, is "intolerantly." What differentiates people like SDFL a bigot (and the anti-gay crowd generally) and you (and atheists/evolutionists generally) is that you can't reasonably be labeled intolerant, or at least the same kind of intolerant as people like SDFL. We see right-wing Christians attempting to remove dissenting thought or practices all the time in the courts, media, etc. For example, gay marriage. Many conservative Christians abhor homosexuality, so they actively engage in campaigns to stigmatize it, punish it, or make homosexuals an unequal class in the law. That's meaningful intolerance; the type of intolerance clearly within the spirit of "bigot. 

    What is not "bigoted" is a rational, measured disapproval of a belief system that is subject to change upon receipt of convincing information. Whereas conservative revulsion and hatred of homosexuality is entirely irrational, atheist disagreement with particular aspects of Christianity are (for the large part) rational. When is the last time you saw atheist organizations attempting to deny Christians fundamental rights practiced by other classes of people? I honestly know 0 atheists who would, say, advocate denying Christians the right to marry, the right to adopt, etc. It simply doesn't happen with nearly the same frequency because right-wing Christians are much less tolerant and much more bigoted than most atheists. One group (people like SDFL) engage in meaningful intolerance; the other (atheists) engage in, at most, nominal intolerance that is merely the result of philosophical disagreement. 

    Of course,  you are also not "obstinately" intolerant, which is another necessary element of the definition of "bigot." You are open to debate on these issues and admit when you are wrong. You don't agree with people like SDFL because they are wrong or incapable of putting forth compelling arguments. They, on the other hand, consistently lose and have argument disproved, but continue believing the same tired crap. They are obstinate. You are not. They are bigots. You are not. 
    So not only is SDFL wrong, he's also illiterate (minority definition meaning ignorant about meaning of words). He's both a wrong idiot and a bigot. Pretty obvious stuff to someone who (1) isn't crazy and (2) speaks the English language with a high schooler's proficiency. 

  • UTRow1

    I would like to point out that this tactic of calling liberals and progressive bigots or anti-intellectuals or racists is just a smokescreen. It was popularized by William F. Buckley when he started losing every debate he had with Chomsky in a humiliating fashion. So, he just started calling Chomsky a bigot, or racist, or fag, or whatever to distract from the fact that Buckley and his intellectual bedfellows actually were racists, bigots, etc. It's a way for them to avoid admitting/denying that they actually believe in what they are accused of believing in while maintaining a false outrage that looks good to idiots in debates. It's transparent and stupid, and it needs to be called out every time people try to do it. 

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