October 25, 2012

  • A Celebrity Convinces Me About Traditional Marriage

    Is there a single legitimate argument against gay marriage that isn’t based on religion, and thus is valid to bring up in our legal system (since we shouldn’t, constitutionally, be passing laws based on religious beliefs)?



    Don’t we have more important things to worry about… like, say, the economy… to be working on banning basic human rights to a group that some of us simply find “icky” because a book written 2000 years ago tells us to?

Comments (39)

  • Many of the secular arguments I’ve seen against legalizing gay marriage resort to questions about allowing incest (polygamy/polyandry doesn’t seem to be a big factor in those arguments), arguing that if we allow for same-sex marriages, we have to make an allowance for incest in the name of equality. Others have countered, though, suggesting that from an evidence-based standpoint, incest leads to more congenital birth defects and is overall more harmful to children than same sex marriage is, therefore there is a good reason to discriminate against incest-based relationships while allowing homosexual ones to flourish. 

    So the question is a matter of balancing evidence with legal interpretations. 

  • @QuantumStorm - Then ban incest, not gay marriage. Otherwise we shouldn’t have allowed interracial marriage to become legal, because it would lead to gay marriage, which (apparently) will lead to incest.

  • @GodlessLiberal - Well from some of the folks I’ve spoken with who make the secular argument against gay marriage, the issue isn’t a slippery slope fallacy but one of legal consistency. If two consenting adults choose to get into a marriage, why not let them get married, regardless of their genetic relationship? I don’t agree with this conclusion, because I think a balance can be struck between a pure evidence-based pragmatism and legal idealism, but meh, it’s worth thinking about. 

  • I can think of a couple:

    (1) Society should be able to pass laws enforcing nothing but a society’s moral sense. (Scalia beleives this.)

    (2) The Gay family unit leads to an enironment less conducive to the health and well-being of the child. (Trun has argued this.)

  • @QuantumStorm - Honestly, as much as the concept of incest gives me the willies (and not just because all my cousins are hillbillies with teeth like a British hockey player), I can’t discriminate against two consenting adults. Yes, genetic defects are an issue, but the same thing is true of those of African origins, which gives a 25% chance of Sickle Cell Disease. And Eastern European Jews marrying are 100 times more likely to have a genetic disorder like Crohn’s Disease and Tay-Sachs.

  • @Celestial_Teapot - I said LEGITIMATE arguments. These are secular arguments, but both are idiotic and false.

  • you got that right!  i just don’t understand that such backward way of thinking still exist in this millennia.  by the way, the video is hilarious :)

  • @GodlessLiberal - Yes, I’m aware of Sickle Cell Anemia’s incidence, as well as Crohn’s, Tay-Sachs, and others. And I’ve made similar arguments to people regarding the point about incest I brought up earlier. The issue still boils down to how far one goes on the spectrum between a purely idealistic legal interpretation, divorced from reality, and a purely pragmatic, evidence-based interpretation divorced from ethics, in order to maximize the survival and success of the population. 

  • If having the sort(s) of opinions you have labels me a godless liberal–
    then I guess I’m a godless liberal too!

  • Ha! Galapagos is one of my all time favorites!!! Isn’t it great??? Vonnegut is so amazing!

  • @amateurprose - This is my third time reading it through. It’s my favorite of his works, and I’ve read almost all of them.

  • I don’t have time to say much other than I agree with your post. I don’t hear anyone making the argument that Eastern European Jews should not be allowed to marry because of their predisposition to Crohn’s Disease nor should that argument be made. Though I’ve not looked it up to confirm this I’ve heard Alzheimer’s is a genetic predisposition but it skips a generation. I don’t hear anyone making the argument that grandchildren of someone who suffers from Alzheimer’s should be not be allowed to marry nor should that argument be made. Yet those two arguments would have more basis in reality than arguments I hear against gay marriage such as “Gays getting married will lead to bestiality.” 

  • I’m reading and liking your conversation with QS. ^_^

  • @grim_truth - Both of these articles are straining to make this square peg fit into the round hole. And neither mention that by denying homosexuals the same rights that heterosexuals have, you are implying that they are less than equal. Gay teens are five times likelier to commit suicide than their heterosexual classmates. Studies show that these numbers go up when in a conservative environment, and down in a liberal, homosexual-tolerant environment.

    This has nothing to do with changing the institution of marriage, which is constantly changing (like when interracial marriage became legal). This has nothing to with infringing on the rights of the majority, since heterosexuals do not suffer one iota from giving homosexual equal rights. None of the articles you provided managed to give a single legitimate secular argument for why gay marriage should be illegal. It simply gave excuses as to why keeping it illegal isn’t something we need to worry about. And frankly, they were wrong.

  • Perhaps we shouldn’t focus so much on what we are against and focus on what we are for. I prefer my heterosexual marriage, but I am not opposed to others choosing differently if they so desire, even if it is icky. Gay marriage is not likely to harm society, unless we allow the issue to fester in our collective consciousness, arguing about it, finding fault vs favor in it. If 5% of the population is gay, there is still 95% that are not and society will very likely survive the diversity of lifestyles. The arguments against gay marriage could be paralleled to aguments against celebacy or remaining single. Many of the same arguments opposed to gay marriage ought to apply to single people as well. I agree that gay marriage is not equal to traditional marriage, but it is also not the evil lifestyle that many would label it as.

    Let it be.

  • You know what I don’t see? Gays and Lesbians having kids. That is a good enough reason for me. Just saying. LOL

  • I wonder how many homeless they could house with all of the churches they built too. 

  • @GodlessLiberal - ” I said LEGITIMATE arguments.”

    And what makes an argument ILLEGITMATE? Your personal sensiblities?

    “These are secular arguments, but both are idiotic and false.”

    Nope and irrelevent.

    I. Re: Idiotic

    Not so.

    (1) Scalia is many things but he’s not idiotic– his argument that socities may pass laws on moral sense alone isn’t trivially rebutted. At the time of the writing and ratification fo the U.S. Constitution, states and cities have outlawed homosexual acts on nothing but their moral disapproval. If the drafters of the Constitution intended such laws to fall otuside the bounds the Constitution itself, they would have expressed it publicly within the mechanism of the law-making process (or Constitutional Amendments) or have done so in their personal writings.

    Just because you dislike a law doesn’t mean it’s unconstitutional.

    (2) If Scalia is wrong, and states & the Federal Government may limit or regulate fundamental rights with a legitmate state interest. Laws dealing with the well-being of the family unit falls well within the purview of the government. If it is the case of gay marriage and the gay family lead to a family unit more harmful or more destructive of that of straight marriages, then government have a legitimate basis for treating gay marriages differently.

    II. Re: False

    Irrelevent. You asked for arguments– and whether they withstand scrutiny and the evidence should be played out in debate, not single word dismissals.

  • @derekwilson24 - What a loving attitude. You’re such a shining light.

  • @whataboutbahb - Isn’t one of the main reasons for Traditional Marriage perpetual regeneration?

  • Unfortunately, reason won’t trump ignorance, fear, religious bigotry any time soon.

  • @GodlessLiberal - You asked for a legitimate secular argument.  I gave you two, @Celestial_Teapot gave a few more.

    You have been given what you asked for, yet dismiss them simply because you don’t agree with them.  What is the purpose of claiming “all arguments against homosexual marriage are a based on a book of fiction written 2000 yaers ago” then ignoring the evidence to the contrary?

    Quite honestly, this entire post of yours seems to be nothing but an attempt to dismiss the other side by saying “if it’s religion behind your opinion, it’s not worth as much as mine” but when given secular arguments, you still dismiss them.  Does this make you any better than those who do use religion to base their opinions?  No, it doesn’t. 

  • @derekwilson24 - It can be a big reason, but it by no means should be viewed as a requirement. Otherwise, why support the elderly getting married, the infertile getting married, etc.?

  • Why is polygamy outlawed?Why is gay marriage disallowed? Why can’t I marry my first cousin or my brother or my son?Why can’t I have a romantic relationship with my clients?  
    Because the MAJORITY of free thinking of adults would say that these things are wrong.  Call it religion.  Call it morality.  Call it an innate sense of right and wrong.  
    And like it or not, civilizations – cultures- communities are  guided by group think.  Majorities rule.  Majorities make the laws and see to it that others adhere to the laws.  
    And in my opinion all laws are based on religion/spirituality to some degree or another.  It’s impossible to separate the two.

  • @gokellyjo - Until the 1860s, the MAJORITY believed that some people could be considered property. Until the 1920s, the MAJORITY believed that women weren’t responsible or intelligent enough to voice their opinion in politics. Until the 1950s the MAJORITY believed that interracial marriage was a sin and those with dark skin deserved less than those with light skin. We have a country designed with measures in place to protect the minority’s rights from the prejudice of the majority.

  • @Celestial_Teapot - (1)(a) The problem with this argument is that it assumes all personal moral philosophies are equally legitimate under the law, have an equal rational basis outside purely subjective morality, and have equal legitimacy in terms of their success throughout American history. That is not the case. Furthermore, this country is not a pure democracy. It’s not true that we live in a society where local, state, or federal legislators can pass legislation to effectuate their majoritarian principles freely. We live in a society of law, and while the law often changes, many fundamental legal principles remain generally the same. For example, when state legislators pass legislation that violates the Due Process Clause or Equal Protection Clause, federal courts have an obligation to strike down the law in its entirety or its unconstitutional provisions. Thus, the moral principles in that unconstitutional law are subordinate to the constitutional principles enforced by the court. 

    This is by design. When you read the Federalist Papers, you see the various authors state time and time against that they believe the morals of society are fickle and constantly changing (which your examples demonstrate). This is true, despite what conservatives believe (e.g., evolution and abortion were really not major galvanizing issues until the mid-1980′s, when the Reagan Administration and Evangelicals began entwining certain social and scientific issues with politics). The Constitution was originally meant to “enshrine” a select set of fundamental principles and make them inviolable, or at least paramount. The Founders worded many of these constitutional principles relatively vaguely, so that they may evolve with society itself, but it’s clear that their intent was never, for example, to have society interpret “equal protection under the law” to, say, permit courts to sentence only black people to death for misdemeanors.  

    Similarly, it’s also important to note, in terms of legitimacy of particular worldviews, that conservatives have been consistently trying to limit personal freedoms to non-heterosexual white males for several hundred years with very little success. This trend, in and of itself, reveals that there is something fundamentally un-American and unconstitutional about their core value system according to the people who have dictated the course of American legal values. Whether it’s miscegenation, the fight to retain Jim Crow laws, the fight to prevent women from voting, or their battle to repeal employment discrimination laws, the conservative world view has consistently been rejected by courts and lawmakers alike (not always in that order). That’s because their beliefs generally violate the plain meaning of the Constitution, the legislative intent of the Founders (of what surprisingly little we know), and how courts currently and will likely interpret clauses like the Equal Protection Clause in the future (which has expanded from protecting only African Americans to now protecting all kinds of classes, including women inter-state travelers).

    (1)(b) Scalia isn’t an idiot, but he is certainly an extreme ideologue, which has a profoundly debilitating effect on the quality and credibility of his opinions. Seriously, if you Westlaw or Nexis search “critique + Scalia,” you will get about a million results, many of which are from legal scholars that are much more respected than Scalia on the issues being discussed. Honestly, a large part of the law school experience is getting to mock Scalia’s poor reasoning and complete disregard for legal precedent when it suits his personal morality (which, ironically, defeats his argument that originalism/textualism constrains judicial activism). This is most evident in cases like Heller, Bush v. Gore, and other cases where Scalia ruled against democratically enacted legislation (embodying the moralities of the legislators) after ignoring legal doctrines the Court is supposedly bound by that are designed to encourage judicial deference to the legislative branch (e.g., the Political Question Doctrine should have forced a staunch proponent of stare decisis like Scalia to refrain from adjudicating Bush v. Gore according to Erwin Chemerinsky and numerous other constitutional law scholars). 

    (2) This argument is less interesting to me, largely because there is virtually no compelling evidence to support it. Like any argument without virtually any evidence, it can be ignored or given very little weight compared to competing opinions that are better substantiated. That being said, there are several flaws with it:

    (a) The harms that conservatives fear children will experience in same-sex households are, generally, either (i) they will be bullied and/or ridiculed by intolerant members of society, or (ii) they will not have a strong male/female presence in the family (whichever is lacking in the homosexual couple). 

    The first argument is essentially self-defeating. Assuming that every child with gay parents has these experiences (there’s no evidence that they do to any significant degree), the argument implicitly admits that homophobia and bigotry are the harms children in same-sex households will experience. Thus, as we did with the conservatives who fought against desegregation efforts “for the good of the blacks,” we shouldn’t limit personal freedoms to protect and promote the bigotry of others. That’s a nonsensical and backwards policy, and furthermore, there is no constitutional basis for this argument in either the plain text of the Constitution or its spirit. Rather, we should promote equal rights for minorities in an effort to defeat the ignorance that has animated many conservative social positions in the past. That way, in the future, being gay doesn’t come attached with an irrational, negative social stigma. By promoting same-sex couples in the same way we promoted women voting or blacks integrating with whites, we will stigmatize bigotry instead of stigmatize homosexuality.    

    The second argument simply makes too many assumptions to be taken seriously and conflicts with the very gender stereotypes conservatives promote outside of this argument. For instance, why is it simply assumed that no homosexual couples have extended family members (or friends) of the opposite sex who can play a major role in the child’s life and fulfill those gender-based needs? Why is it assumed that a child needs a male/female presence at all? That is, why can’t the “butch” lesbian provide all the “male input” the child needs? There’s really no reason for conservatives to make these assumptions, and there is certainly no compelling evidence supporting these assumptions (the overwhelming evidence indicates that children in sex-same households are just as happy as those who grow up with heterosexual parents).

    @grim_truth - The problem is that these arguments simply are not very good and, among other things, merely assert subjective valuations without evidence and without legal justification (e.g., promoting procreation has consistently been rejected by modern federal courts as a compelling state interest–”compelling state interest” has been viewed very narrowly by federal courts in Equal Protection  and Due Process analyses; the article merely assumes that homosexual marriage doesn’t promote procreation through indirect means, such as fertilization; etc.). 

    But rather than writing a lengthy post about why this graduate student’s (not an expert) arguments are crippled by his ignorance of the law underlying his arguments, I will just post some articles that have effectively debunked some of his premises: (1) and (2).    

  • @GodlessLiberal - I completely agree with your examples.  You asked for a legitimate argument that supports the ban on gay marriage.  I gave you a legitimate argument/explanation.  I said that the mores of of culture determine its laws.  

    When people do not follow some sort of absolute truth to govern themselves, the results are catastrophic.   ie:  people feel they have the right to ownership of other people.  Gods teachings are that ALL people are created in HIS image and are valued above all creation.  Holy texts teach that God sees the hearts of (wo)men – not their skin color or their gender.  
    So, in the examples that you gave, the MAJORITY created laws that trampled the rights of individuals in spite of higher laws derived from absolute truth.  
    You never did respond to the question of laws against prostitution, polygamy or marrying a relative.  I am from Michigan – and in our state there are even laws against adultery.  It is a felony.  So it’s not like we have created laws that regulate behaviors of gays only.  Many laws exist that regulate sexual behaviors in our society.
    Respectfully -

  • @gokellyjo - Certain aspects of what you’re saying have no basis in American law or history. That’s the issue. 

    First, you seem to believe that “Holy texts” (whatever that includes) only have one interpretation/one absolute truth and are not capable of differing interpretations or negative “truths”. That’s simply not accurate. My point isn’t that the Bible is “bad” or that it is inherently dangerous, like some atheists believe, but rather that most religious texts simply aren’t capable of providing “absolute truth” for the vast majority of socio-political problems in this world that is uniform among large groups of people. 

    In fact, the reason why the texts of many major religious groups are so successful is precisely because they lend themselves to many different interpretations and messages, which broadens their appeal to different people with different interests, different needs, and different life experiences. That’s why, for example, there are both Christians who use the Bible to support hippy ideals and Christians who use the Bible to support war indiscriminately nuking Iran.

    Second, you seem to believe that the “absolute truth” you have derived from the Bible is shared by all Christians now and in America’s history. That’s simply not true. American Christians have used the Bible to promulgate legislation or engage in actions that, among other things, denied women the right to vote, legalized slavery, enacted Jim Crow laws, created xenophobic and racial groups like the KKK, supported wars that entailed the killing of innocent civilian children, supported the murder of abortion providers, fought desegregation efforts, fought miscegenation and bi-racial marriages, etc. Other Christians, past and present, have certainly used the Bible to oppose types of prejudicial behaviors, but many of their beliefs have been or continue to be in the minority among certain groups of people and in certain geographic areas. Regardless, these inconsistencies provide some evidence that, in practice, the Bible provides little no “absolute truth” as concrete and broad as you seem to believe.  

    The truth of the matter is that Christian’s interpretation of the Bible has changed drastically throughout American history for many of the same reasons our interpretation of the Constitution has changed throughout the centuries, including the fact that American moral and ethical values have changed. Those changes are largely attributable to non-religious sources, including popular secular philosophy, economic concerns, and the Constitution. 

    Third, in this country, neither the Bible nor other religious texts are our universal absolute truth. The rule of law is the closest thing we have to an absolute truth, and the rule of law is not absolute in any meaningful sense (for reasons discussed above). Furthermore, the rule of law is not dictated by the Bible or other religious books, and it never has been. There are some jurists, like Scalia, who have tried to fashion new law that codifies their religious values or interpret existing law in the light that is most conducive to their religious beliefs, but the vast majority of laws and regulations are driven by secular concerns (e.g., natural resource conservation, economics, principles like equality that don’t necessarily have a religious basis, etc.) The bottom line is that the Bible has been used to support historically wrong-minded legislation that limited equality and freedom in the past (e.g., slavery). If religious people want to limit equality to homosexuals, they need to come up with secular defenses of those beliefs, because the Bible doesn’t have a great track record. 

    Lastly, it’s easy to come up with secular justifications for limiting behaviors like prostitution (e.g., having hookers walking about lowers property values, child prostitution is encouraged, prostitution has historically been linked with criminal organizations and illegal drugs use, etc.) It’s much more difficult to find those types of justifications with restricting gay marriage, which has virtually no tangible negative effects on society apart from offending the personal religious values of some Christians. Similarly, citing Michigan’s adultery laws doesn’t really suit your purposes because the law isn’t enforced by modern courts. That would seem to indicate that the law doesn’t represent the “absolute truth” you seem to believe in (because courts simply ignore it in proceedings). These laws aren’t enforced by state courts because, in part, they are clearly unconstitutional. Because courts stopped enforcing them, state legislators had no reason (other than symbolic reasons) to repeal them. As a result, they remain “the law” on paper, but they aren’t “the law” in practice. Society has progressed and rejected those archaic values as part of its adoption of more progressive values (which will likely also change in the future).

  • @UTRow1 - Re: 1a (Just 1a since I’m lazy =P)

    Scalia would agree that we don’t live in the pure democracy and that the U.S. Constitutions does exist (in part) to put up walls and bondaries to the sort of laws a state or the federal government may pass. On Free Speech cases, for instance, the Justice has consistently teamed up witht he liberal members of the court in striking down speech-limiting legislaion.

    The Courts, however, is the least democratic branch of government. Federal judges sit for life. They are neither elected nor checked by the vote of the people. Given the scope of their responsibities, ther is an appeal and a danger for judges abusing their powers: short-circuiting the democratic process and subjectively imposing their political preferences. This is why in interpretation of statutes, Scalia  argues that judges ought to take a textalist approach. Federal laws and Constitutional Amendments should only do what they say: as they are meant by the people who wrote them at the time they wer written.

    Scalia would argue that useage of the Equal Protection Clause and Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment for striking down Gay Marriage laws would be improper. The 14th Amendment were passed along with the 13th, 14th, and 15th as a part of the Civil Rights Amendments afte the Civil War. They were intended to grant and protect the civil rights of former American slaves. When they wrote it, none of the legislatures who drafted and ratified the Equal Protection clause meant for it to extend indefinately to the recognition and protection of gender rights or gay rights.

    Scalia would take even greater issue with the Due Process Clause. The Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment had been used as a gateway for the reocognition and protection of “fundamental rights.” Included in this is the right to marriage and the right to privacy (i.e. abortion). (This use of the clause is called Substantive Due Process.) All these are good things, but it involves stretching and manipulating– perverting– ”due process” to much more than it was ever understood to mean.

    “Due Process” shows up in the 5th Amendment– and it was never use as a catch-all for as a blanket of unenumerated rights. The phrase also shows up in the Magna Carta, and it wasn’t used as a catch-all there. What Due Process is meant to protect are procedual rights.

    Scalia would admit that the Constituion isn’t perfect. Bad laws are passed all the time. However, it isn’t up to judges to act as super-legislatures, arbitrarily and subjectively manipulating laws to create new rights that never previously existed or to strike down laws that should stand. This improper use of jurisprudential powers is a subversion of the democratic process. If new rights arise– abortion, gay marriage– we have a perfectly good process to recognize and protect them. It’s called democracy. If a new Constitutional Amednment is needed, we pass it.

  • Also, I shoudl add, I don’t agree with the Scalia and the rest of them Textualists. Not quite sure how I got drawn into defending them in this entry. -_-

  • @GodlessLiberal - Again playing the devil’s advocate: It shoudl be noted that in your examples that rights weren’t manufactured out of thin air. Legislatures and the states went throgh the democratic process to propose and enshrine Constitutionally Protected rights:

    Until the 1860s, the MAJORITY believed that some people could be considered property.

    Yes, and it wasn’t until adoption of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendment that slavery ended and African-Americans were (at least legally) considered full citizens.

    Until the 1920s, the MAJORITY believed that women weren’t responsible or intelligent enough to voice their opinion in politics….

    Yes, and to grant women the right to vote, we passed the 19th Amendment.

    “…We have a country designed with measures in place to protect the minority’s rights from the prejudice of the majority.”

    Yes, the Constitution is often contramajorian– when the will of the people fall out of bounds and infringing on a fundamentally protected right, the corresponding law or ordiance is invalidated. Even more dangerous, though, is artifically erecting and blocking democracy in places it shouldn’t be blocked.

    When we ended slavery and when we granted women the right to vote, we went through the democratic process to pass Constitutional Amendments. Why can’t we do the same with gay marriage?

  • For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,” Romans 1:26-28

  • @Celestial_Teapot - This should be brief:

    Right, I’m not arguing Scalia believes we have a pure democracy. My criticisms of Scalia are limited to my (1)(b) response. 

    Actually, Scalia’s alleged method of constitutional interpretation is quite different than his methodS of constitutional interpretation he uses in practice. He is not a true originalist or textualist in practice. Not only that, Scalia, when pressed, has admitted that being a “pure” originalist and “pure” textualist leads to undesirable results, causing him to apply different theories of interpretation when “necessary.” In practice, he is only a textualist/originalist when those methods provide him with the outcomes he desires; at other times, he will adopt other methods of interpretation. This “feint-hearted” originalism/textualism doesn’t just receive criticism from liberals like Erwin Chermerinsky and Stephen Griffin, it has received widespread criticism among conservatives and Federalists, like Randy Barnett. Scalia is incredibly ad-hoc about how he interprets the Constitution.

    There are several general problems undermining Scalia’s textualism/originalism, which have been discussed at lengthy by Stephen Griffin in his most recent constitutional theory papers: 

    (1) There is little evidence that the Framers intended for future generations to take a textualist/originalist approach to interpreting the Constitution. Scalia tries to derive legitimacy for his opinions by pretending his predominant theory of interpretation is somehow more “legitimate” than competing theories, but there’s really no evidence for this claim. In fact, the first Supreme Court frequently applied non-textualist and non-originalist theories of interpretation in landmark cases, like Marbury v. Madison

    (2) There simply is no reliable way to determine the original “intent” or the original “meaning” of the Constitution. Legal historians like Saul Cornell have pointed out again and again that the legislative history behind the Constitution and many of its Amendments is simply too incomplete to allow for modern generations to “translate” the document as it was originally interpreted. Scalia often thinks it’s as easy as getting dictionaries printed on or around the time the relevant text was written, but that’s an incredibly incompetent approach to the issue according to virtually every legal historian. 

    (3) Scalia’s selective application of textualism and originalism reveal that those theories do not, in fact, restrain judicial activism. This is problematic, as their supposedly constrictive nature has been their major selling point for conservative jurists since the Reagan Administration began politicizing constitutional interpretation. 

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