August 25, 2011
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Discrimination Against Atheists
Atheism is quite possibly the least popular and least understood philosophical position in America. Atheists are quite often assumed to be immoral, dangerous and cynical – after all, how can one be a good person without God in their lives? We are discriminated against in all areas of our lives… perhaps not on the scales of many other groups, but discrimination is discrimination. Many of us feel it necessary to hide our religious beliefs… or, more accurately, lack thereof, for fear of what our contemporaries might think. Personally, I had to keep quiet around my former girlfriend’s parents (who are Catholics), for certainly would not have approved of my atheism. But why is atheism a special case? They wouldn’t have been upset if they had found out I was Lutheran or Jewish. Again, it comes back to the misconceived idea of an atheist.
Many would ask why I don’t just pretend to be a theist around people who would have a problem with my “coming out of the closet” as an atheist. While I’m not going to bring it up if nobody else does, I’m not going to hide it. It’s a part of who I am, why should I have to hide it? It’s a very draining experience to conceal my personal views, especially for long periods of time. And it’s been my experience that long-term lies beget more lies, and it becomes difficult to keep the whole story together. And if I do manage to deceive the people around me for awhile, then they eventually find out, the situation will be worse than if I had merely told them in the first place.
In a world with sexism, racism, ageism, anti-Semitism and homophobia, there is no word for discrimination against people without a religious belief. And it’s not because we are such a small minority: the 2001 ARIS poll shows that 14.1% of all Americans identify themselves as “without religion”. Between 1990 and 2000, the number of atheist/seculars went up 110%, from 13 million to 28 million.
In the book, The Atheist: Madalyn Murray O’Hair, about the woman with a key role in ridding the public schools of sanctioned prayer, the author details attacks against her for her atheism:
Attacks on the Murrays’ home intensified. Neighbors made their disdain clear and tried to drive them from the neighborhood. The word “Communist” was painted, in red, across the alley in two-foot letters. Antennas were snapped from their cars, the paint damaged, and tires slashed. The house windows were broken, and at one point they found a bullet lodged in one of their cars. The young Jon Garth was shunned by his former playmates, harassed by others, and his cat was killed.Madalyn sought protection from city police and courts, but it took two years of petitions and incidents before the city finally offered Madalyn and her family a police guard at their home after dark and directed patrol cars to swing by their house during their daily route through the neighborhood. In the matter of the bus incident noted earlier [“While visiting a local shopping center, a group of boys began taunting [William Murray] about being a “commie,” and his being “Mr. Madalyn Murray,” William ran to the bus stop, but they caught him, assaulted him, and attempted to push him in front of an approaching bus, which he was able to board and escape.”], Madalyn swore out warrants against eight of her son’s attackers.
The case went to Municipal Court in September 1962, and according to Madalyn the boys confirmed William’s account. Their attorney entered guilty pleas for them and threw them on the mercy of the court. The judge questioned the boys as to their past behavior, lectured them, ordered them to shake hands, and dismissed the case.
Obviously atheists don’t have a stranglehold on immorality. Which brings up another valid point: Atheists happen to be just as moral as their theistic counterparts, but without attributing this morality to a deity of any sort. I believe this quote shows quite well that even if one is a devout Christian, they can still be a sinner:
“Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners… But for that very reason, I was shown mercy so that in me… Jesus Christ might display His unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.”
This quote is from a statement made to the court on February 17th 1992 by Jeffrey Dahmer, the notorious cannibal serial killer of Milwaukee. But one deviance doesn’t necessarily change the rule. So is it true that born-again Christians are more moral than their atheist counterparts? A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior deteriorated after “born again” experiences. While only 4% of respondents said they had driven intoxicated before being “born again,” 12% had done so after conversion. Similarly, 5% had used illegal drugs before conversion, 9% after. Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex before salvation; 5% after. And only 0.2% of the US prison population is non-religious.
So where does the stigma against atheists come from? We are, in general, a moral group… the difference being that we don’t need to be given a set of rules to follow to determine our morality. We apply a skeptical outlook on positive claims, and don’t take things on faith. We make our own purpose in life, as we don’t have one given to us by a higher power. Are these qualities so horrendous as to justify the distaste of many for atheists?
Comments (81)
Many Christians just don’t know enough atheists to make a valid assumption… They just go by what makes sense to them.
What is your theory for why people distrust atheists?
My firstborn is an atheist. He is also a geuinely decent, caring person who is anti-war, anti-racism and pro-LGBT rights. Sounds pretty morsl to me.
@jmallory - I agree, but I’d amend that to include that they don’t know that some of the people they know are atheists.
That story breaks my heart. Logically I understand how people react in terrible ways when their world is disoriented and they feel attacked but those in Christ, at least, should never feel so threatened and should always love. Heart breaking.
Tim Keller wrote a book entitled Reason for God (it’s ok) which I recently went through with some folks at the downtown pub and in the first chapter he writes about the overlap of morality between Christians and nonChristians and he writes, “Christianity not only leads its members to believer people of other faiths have goodness and wisdom to offer, it also leads them to expect that many will live lives morally superior to their own.” He goes on to say Jesus didn’t come to tell us how to earn salvation but simply to accept an already present salvation. If Salvation is not earned then there is absolutely zero reason for not loving others who are different or even wicked. Anyway, all that to say this discrimination is ridiculous. I’m okay with Christians saying “know God and his love and come under his reign! Repent from evil!” But that can be done in love. I can tell you that without killing your cat and making you sure you don’t take public office.
The interesting about my parents (my mother) being Catholic is that I think they would rather accept Atheist or Jewish than any other religion for the most part. Or maybe someone who is willing to tolerate and accept.
A person shouldn’t pretend to be something they’re not, the truth might not be accepting at the beginning but people warm up to people with time. Simple. Why hide who you are for someone else. The problem is when people do not understand and blind-sighted try to understand in their own terms and get all the assumptions wrong. I never made an effort to find out people’s personal beliefs, it wasn’t in my interest. I felt: live and let live worked best for me. Although, Now I’m starting to recognize everybody’s personal beliefs just by their actions and words (not everybody is obvious). I didn’t know I knew quite a few, Christians (of many denominations mostly catholic, quite a few mormons), Atheists, agnostics, I know quite a few jewish friends, and probably a minority of the rest but it doesn’t change anything. I guess the discrimination comes from those extremists who don’t understand and think everything is the work of the devil… and I’ve seen catholic extremists and I just shake my head in ignorance and none tolerance.
Sometimes I think we’re too peaceful.
Atheism is gaining more acceptance with the “mainstream,” if you look at where it was a few decades ago… as with most concepts that differ from “traditionally accepted values,” it takes time to gain widespread acceptance. We’ll get there. Look at how long it took for the Civil Rights movement to take effect, the gay and lesbian community is STILL fighting for equality and a life free from ignorance begetting intolerance… human beings, as a species, are just… slow to change and thick (not all of us, of course, but enough of us).
[Atheists happen to be just as moral as their theistic counterparts, but without attributing this morality to a deity of any sort...]
I beg to differ. Atheists are more moral than most xtians.
Things like those that happened to Madalyn are VERY common. They’re just a wee bit less common these days, but not by much. Many (but not all, blah, blah) xtians are, to put it simply, intolerant and often violent little fucktards. “Oh, you’re an atheist. I’m going to harass you, insult you, damage your property, and perhaps even kill you.” Yeap. All because we don’t believe in their imaginary friend – an alleged god of love that you MUST believe in to behave in the most moral way possible (or so they say.) Can you feel the love? Me neither.
it comes from fucking idiots who can’t discern the fact that the definition of morals and ethics have nothing to do with religion.
everyone has a right to believe what they want to. atheism has a lot more evidence,logic, common sense than the bible thumping asswipes that say shit like “The bible says” answers we hear all the time.
“We make our own purpose in life, as we don’t have one given to us by a higher power. Are these qualities so horrendous as to justify the distaste of many for atheists?”
In a word, YES! Please acquaint yourself with the fascistic nature of mainstream American society. It is for the very reason that atheists will call bullshit on the psychopathology of everyday living that we are so hated.
the story about O’Hair shows just how cowardly and lacking in morals and human decency those people are. i’m not an atheist as such but my beliefs have never been mainstream. i realized when i was in my late teens i did not have to worry about speaking my mind because frankly people are frightened by my physical presence and prowess. that should not be a criteria but for cowards like those it is. i never threaten people unless i assess it a necessity to protect someone.
btw, according to several polls the tea party now has a lower approval rating among Americans than a laundry list of various “groups” including Muslims and including atheists.
@TheSutraDude - Really? I need to go find that study. That’s extremely uplifting.
@GodlessLiberal - it is uplifting. i know one was a recent New York Times poll. i think another was a recent CNN poll but i can’t say for sure.
I think the same things wrong with atheism are reflected in Christianity.
Face it, the only incidents that make news are the ones that are completely terrifying and likely done by the insane, all in the name of religion. (I’m treating atheism as a religion, which I realize is inaccurate, but it doesn’t change the validity.) Because few people are willing to look past the news, and willing to talk to *real* people about things, misunderstanding is spread by both groups.
Like people, no social group is perfect, and they all have flaws and inconsistencies. I am by no means defending persecution of any one group, but I do think both atheists and Christians are misrepresented.
Indeed I would also like to know. Distaste, harassment, violation, violence, hatred, discrimination, defamation (of self and property). How are these god-faring people who do this to non-god-faring people really making themselves look like the morally superior ones? Honestly!
I think people are people no matter what they might think about their own morality. Some are good and some aren’t so good no matter what label they chose to wear. An atheist can be rude and pretty much the way bigots claim all of us are, but by the same token Christians can be devils too.
The major difference is in what a person is willing to sacrifice in themselves in order to become a better moral being. All of us have the same gamut of emotions and some know the difference between good and bad. It’s the acting out of the bad we should avoid, no matter what persuasion we hold to.
The religious person has several more stumbling blocks than the non religious person though. They have a history to draw upon which is highly publicized, and a support group within the many churches across the land. Most of the belief structures of the religious are not flexible and questioning them is prohibited, (not openly of course, but more through subtle intimidation). So holding to a prefab morality which billions share makes it pretty clear that you are not to fuck with this way of thinking; who are you (religious person) to do that, (which really is saying, who are you to live), because as Ayn Rand said in ‘“What Is Capitalism?” Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, Pg 22
“Reason is the only means of communication among men, and an objectively perceivable reality is their only common frame of reference; when these are invalidated…in the field of morality, force becomes men’s only way of dealing with one another.”
When you disable your own mind from questioning the truth of a claim, you have no hope of achieving morality, but a very good chance to become immoral.
I live in a catholic country, was raised a catholic myself but people here don’t mess with you about your religion, mostly because after 70 years of revolutionary regime, religion is just something for old ladies and poor people, students and academics are all proud atheists. Yup that’s how it is here in Mexico. State took all church properties and power 100 years ago and they’re just ornamental, turistic allure, at least in Mexico city.
Did you know that science resulted from Christianity?
I didn’t think so.
Christians and Christianity are being discriminated against, not atheists.
I just think… atheism isn’t my identity. I’m an atheist, but I’m 1000 other things too, and if people are not going to get to know me because of one tiny part of me, then they clearly aren’t worth getting to know either.
We are extremely discriminated against. Like we’re the devil or something.
I’m in the UK, and luckily here I don’t feel discriminated against as an atheist at all, but then that’s because way more people here are atheists. In fact, you’re the exception, and are pretty much discriminated against if you are a Christian.
I don’t understand the morality point of view either. Personally I think Atheists could be seen to be more moral than theists; Atheists are good because they care for the well-being of others as well as themselves, Theists care about being good so that God won’t smush them with his giant finger from the clouds.
haha! science originated with christianity? wow. ancient Greece anyone? Egypt? the Vatican only officially accepted the Earth is not the center of the Universe in the 1980s and only un-excommunicated Galileo 2 or 3 years ago. christianity has been largely fighting science tooth and nail for its own political and power grabbing reasons.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Science has always existed. It erupted to the forefront after the Protestants rebelled.
Or, if you prefer the Catholic explanation, with all popes being infallible and incapable of transmitting lies, here it is: John Paul II was the pope who moved the Sun from its orbit around Earth to the center of the solar system by mere decree. Pretty amazing, when you consider how heavy it is.
@TheSutraDude - Aristotle developed Greek “science” and he was WRONG on nearly everything he pontificated about.
Greek knowledge was developed almost excursively through pure reason.
It was Christian thinkers who realized that reason alone could not unlock the secrets of creation. It was they who broke from the shackles of Greek reason to develop the scientific method of experimentation.
@how2saveaplanet - Science has not always existed. What you are saying is historically, veritably wrong.
Science is uniquely Western.
There may have been glimmers of it in other cultures but it was not systematized into a universal method until Christian scholars of the Middle Ages developed it.
@CorvyusMorte - Mexico outlawed the Church after the Revolution of 1910.
@TheSutraDude - Did you know that Aristotle taught that if you dropped a heavy object and a small object at the same time, the heavy object would hit the ground first?
It was through scientific experimentation 800 years later that Aristotle was proven wrong.
Why didn’t Aristotle just perform the simple experimentation to prove that he was right?
It’s because he didn’t understand the concept. He thought that all knowledge was arrived at by pure reason.
@emily_shannon - That’s because news agencies are in it for the money. And sensational news gets more viewers, which in turn gets more sponsors, which in turn results in more money. After all, how many people would be interested in the story of a diverse group of friends with different religious & political views getting together for a Lord of the Rings Marathon, one fine weekend?
@haloed - You know the phrase “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”? Presumed moral superiority is one of those good intentions.
Those days are gone. They did exist, no doubt, but in this country you are no longer unique. Yes, you are likely going to find woes if your girlfriends family is Catholic, but so will a Muslim amongst Jewish in-laws(or vice versa), or a Christian amongst an Atheist family, and so on. At least if they are serious about what they believe.
I’m as concerned about how Atheists discriminate against Christians as i am about Christians discriminating against Atheists. Having friends on both ends, i find myself in the middle shaking my head wondering why you guys spend so much time banging heads, so little time letting things be and living. But it carries, as you each will.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Yeah, gladly we don’t have that tirany over us since long time ago
@CorvyusMorte - Loborn’s comments are ALWAYS nothing but ridiculous nonsense. To call everything he says “false” would be a gigantic understatement. It’s beyond false.
And, in case you don’t know, he’s a man named Curtis.
http://celestial-teapot.xanga.com/739127035/lobornlyte-is-a-man-and-i-can-prove-it/
And he stole the identity of fitness guru Denise Paglia. For a long time, he pretended to be this super fit model, and he’s just a fugly old bastard. LOL!
Take me as the atheist I am or you can go home. That is how I see it
@CorvyusMorte - Are there any Catholic grammar schools or high schools in Mexico?
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Quit trolling! Wait, that’s the socially acceptable response for when one of us comments on the others’ site, right? I mean, that’s what you say to me every time I comment on your site.
@GodlessLiberal - I am stating the facts and trying to participate in the discussion. How is that trolling?
Are facts that revolting to you?
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Oh, because when I engage in discussion on your site, you call it trolling. And “Christianity created science” isn’t a fact, it’s a statement of belief unless you back it up with evidence.
@GodlessLiberal - This is a trolling comment you left on my site:
The government doesn’t own any of the car companies they bailed out (and in fact, those companies have paid back the loan). Losing millions of American jobs is considered by most to be a bad thing.
I notice Rush talks about politicians sharing nude pictures and cheating with interns, but avoids things like Senator Larry Craig cheating on his wife by soliciting a gay prostitute (which, unlike the first two activities, is actually ILLEGAL in addition to being immoral and hypocritical).
Marriage was redefined multiple times, most recently to make interracial marriage legal.
I think that Native Americans would have something to say about Rush and his “illegal immigrant” comments. (You think Manifest Destiny was a moral principle?)
I figured you had to be trolling because everything in your comment is demonstrably false. EVERYTHING!
Calling you a troll is giving you the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise you are a totally ignorant, stupid fool.
So what are you, a troll, or a totally ignorant stupid fool?
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - I admit I was wrong about the government and the auto companies, although the government owns 27% of GE, so it’s not a majority share.
I still stand by my other statements.
Now, I unblocked you because I figured maybe you would try contributing a tad more to the conversation. If you’re still going to do nothing but make sweeping blanket statements and insults, I’m going to reblock you as most of my readers want me to. Your choice.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace -
for someone who talks an awful lot, you certainly say very little of value.
as for science being “created” by Christianity, please explain the inventions of such things as agriculture and the wheel. inventions are certainly scientific, no?
Ha ha, basically most people I associate with tend to be atheists, so I always felt like I had to be quiet about my theism. I would hang around Christians, but they’re too annoying.
@too_pretty_to_die - It just so happens that my post of today answers your questions. It’s called Christianity Gave Birth to Science. LINK
I’m Atheist, and I follow a simple rule that I don’t understand why others don’t.
Its: Your life is yours. It doesn’t concern me, and mine shouldn’t concern yours either. Your religion is something you follow, I respect that and lack of mine is a choice of my own.
we like to think of ourselves as more civilized & open-minded than previous generations. yet this kind of discrimination is still happening, and the ones who think of themselves as “morally superior” based on religious belief tend to be the ones who perpetrate the hostility. I don’t hide my beliefs around anyone, and yes- I’ve been told I’m going to hell more times than I’d like to remember. I usually reply, “If ur Jesus told you that, he’s kind of an asshole.”
Btw, no need to hide your beliefs around anyone in my life. My loved ones are predominately atheist/ agnostic as it is, plus you’re fucking awesome & won’t ever need to hide anything around me =]
@emily_shannon - Perhaps it would be easier and more humane if religion agreed to “disorganize” itself :p
A lot of this can be applied to pagans too. I usually only let on if I’m asked. Let them know you like pentacles and, a lot of ‘em are ready to set you on fire.
That caption on that last picture is epic win, by the way.
Most of my friends are Christians, so they just assume I’m one too. The only uncomfortable-ness between is is the lack of conversation. For example, my friends can talk about church activities and retreats while I just be mute. If we did talk about it, the conversation would be: “So, what church do you go to?” “I’m an atheist.” “Oh, okay.” They wouldn’t try to convert me or whatever, but the conversation ends there. About science and religion: Sure, the church promoted and funded the development of science in its early days, but that was back then. As history moves on (and as scientists who challenged their own church were punished), the society where science thrives became more secular, especially when the Bible is repeatedly refuted with concrete evidence.
@missbartleby - You’d be surprised what some Christians are capable of. I went to a predominantly Christian college in the South and was the head of the College Republicans. Most of my friend were moderate conservatives and very Christian. However, around my junior year, I began taking a lot of religion classes and getting into upper level science courses that explained the natural world. As I became more knowledgeable, faith became increasingly absurd to me. The friends that I had, who I was sure wouldn’t care, all pretended to be fine with it initially. However, over the following months, “polite” discussion and prostelytization became less frequent, and were replaced with very threatening, condescending discussions. By the end of the year, they had gone so far as petition the school and the national board for the College Republicans (or its equivalent) to remove me from office because I was an atheist. In their minds, they honestly didn’t believe that what they were doing was discriminatory. Unfortunately, they forgot that the people they were pleading to were Republicans, and as such, I was permitted to stay because of the enormous amount of money I pulled into the organization through alumni events and other school functions.
The bottom line is that Christianity, like most religions, has a lot of historical, organizational (the church), and biblical (e.g., Deuteronomy 17) intolerance for people to draw upon. It’s hard to be a devout, “good” Christian while remaining truly “tolerant” and accepting of other people’s rejection of those beliefs (which partially explains the rise of conservative Evangelicalism). While one can make the argument that Christianity also teaches people to be tolerant (it does in some respects), it’s very hard for people to be Christians (particularly conservative, Southern Christians) and not be very, very judgmental, if not outright bigoted against non-believers. I know a few who have managed to do it (most of which were liberals), but they seem to be becoming increasingly uncommon these days.
And to anyone who lives in the South and believes otherwise, I challenge you to pretend to be an atheist, study up on atheist arguments, and “canvass” self-identified Christians in a public area while trying to have polite conversations about your beliefs. You’d be surprised how many are incredibly, outwardly bigoted many of them are once you start making critical arguments that they don’t have a talking point memorized to rebut.
Ahhh gross generalizations of the diverse people types of the world. Ignorance at it’s finest.
@ShimmerBodyCream - HAHAHA
Gee discrimination against athiests as opposed to discrimination against Christians by athiests in the courts. Think Michael Nedow among others as they are offended or injured by the pledge of alliegance and/or the sight of crosses on memorials. Because this minority feels persecuted Christians are banned from prayers at school functions. Military veterans can’t have cross memorials any where as that may offend or injure the godless ones. Now we suffer the tynnny of the minority over the majority as a result. If you feel offended or persecuted feel free to take advantage of that quaint custom of emigration and see what you get.
@Old Soldier - Give me a break! ”Tyranny of the minority”?!? You don’t even know what you are talking about. Not allowing government entities to impose religious beliefs/symbols on the population in government/public places is hardly the same as passing laws favoring atheism. You are allowed to believe whatever you want and practice your religion as you see fit, you simply are not allowed to pass laws based purely on your religious beliefs or to force everyone around you in a public space to listen to your crap. That’s bullshit, and it offends more than just atheists. Do you really think Muslims, Pagans and any different denomination of Christianity wants to be forced to participate in your rituals/prayers? There are plenty of churches in America, that’s where God and religion belong – and nowhere else.
” But why is atheism a special case? They wouldn’t have been upset if they had found out I was Lutheran or Jewish.”
you should’ve told them you are a muslim back then, just to see how they react, haha
that story mentioned, made me wonder.. if someone with communist ideology, should they be discriminated against?
I don’t believe anyone is moral.
I don’t believe an atheist is more moral than a Christian and I don’t believe a Christian is more moral than an atheist.
I believe that if a person TRULY accepts Christ, (and I can tell you that in many cases, it doesn’t seem to have been the case, most of them were looking for a quick fix to their own problems) then their lives will continue to display the workings of God. I know when I see someone and I think to myself, “Ah… that person has been truly touched by God…” and I have to tell you, I think it of an atheist every so often.
For I believe that everyone can be touched by God and guided whether or not they believe.
Christians ALSO get trampled for being believers… the only ones who don’t seem to get trampled are those who basically take no stance until someone says, “Hey, what do you believe…?” (Usually while everyone is downing beer… although I kid, I kid… haha)
Whenever someone realizes that I’m the kind of Christian who actually KNOWS some about the bible, can quote scripture, am a pastors kid, and has actually done research in “MILD” science, theology, history of lands and times, etc- suddenly an unbeliever will become very hostile to me.
Calling me dellusional, and idiotic… I once lost an atheist “friend” because he asked questions, I gave him my best answers and he wrote me ten pages of insults including ones about how his 9/10year old SON could have written better than myself.
I (a small young at the time, woman) was once mocked by a man much larger than myself in front of some fifty other MEN (Some of them hostile)… for being a believer… simply for being a believer. I tell you this was all this was about. I had never argued religion with him, I had never told him he was going to hell, nothing. This was all about my belief in Christ. I was scared, and had no where to go… What did I do? I forgave him and married said man. haha.
Before I married him however, he was an atheist, and I will tell you that I suffered many insults and stigma thrown my way regarding my own personal beliefs, and who I was. I will never forget- one time we were watching a movie together myself, him, and two of my friends who were ALSO believers, and there was a scene in which a character who was being “portrayed” as a Christian was acting hysterical and unlike (I must say) any Christian I had ever seen… My (not then) husband chimed, “Well THERES your typical CHRISTTTTTIAN For ya!” Totally serious… My friends and I all looked at one another as if to ask if he actually realized that we were all Christians… Not to mention that we’d brought him into our home, cared for him, loved him, given him dinner, and now there was this comment. I actually said nothing, and years later he apologized for his many insults hurled at me.
But he is not the only atheist I have had the pleasure of knowing (and I say pleasure because I truly mean it… I know MANY atheists who are truly wonderful caring people) – but every so often, an atheist comes down on me very hard… I had my car scratched one time I think this was in relation to religion.
I think the problem becomes when we really sit down and argue/try to teach REAL truth.
Until that point everyone is just having a party basically in which you and I could go into a restuarant together, have a smashing good time for hours (Something I’d love to do btw someday haha) and never once have brought up Christianity, atheism, science, creation, etc.
I find that many people don’t understand there is a difference between being an American and being a Christian. These are the same people who think freedom, democracy, and capitalism are synonyms. They’ve never taken the time to question or understand anything. They merely listen to what others tell them and follow along blindly. To them, repeating something over and over with increasing volume and intensity, makes it more true. Atheists are not religious therefore they cannot be American. Since they aren’t American they are communists and hate freedom.
@Old Soldier - [Because this minority feels persecuted Christians are banned from prayers at school functions.]
No, Christians are banned from FORCING prayers on school functions.
[Military veterans can't have cross memorials any where as that may offend or injure the godless ones.]
Right, because Arlington Cemetery doesn’t have a single cross on display…
In response to the first sentence: Islam. Go on as you will with atheism, but at least your stereotype is that you are all future suicide bombers who throw stones at women for fun.
@Melissa___Dawn - a recent Harvard study concluded the tea party is nothing new. it is comprised of the same religion-in-government people who have made up the far right fundamentalist fringe for years and they are the ones in the minority. most Americans believe, according to the same and similar recent studies, that religion should stay out of government and public life and that trend thankfully is growing and that includes people who define themselves as religious.
@In_Reason_I_Trust - Thank you I’ll try my best to avoid him.
@UTRow1 - Dude, I didn’t have to go to college to get that faith is useless. Anyway, I think this is because I don’t live in the South. I live in a diverse community of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists, so we have a “Coexist” attitude towards religion. While many are raised with religion, our diversity helps us respect each other’s faiths and non-faiths as a personal thing and not try to persuade each out of whatever they believe in (meaning no one just randomly goes up to people in public areas to discuss religion, it’s rude). We also accept that if a person is violent or “overly insistent” about imposing their faith, they will have little friends. From what you described about the South, I think growing up in this environment of tolerance and peaceful, free thought is a privilege for a self-proclaimed atheist.
@TheSutraDude - I’m Tea Party. We don’t want religion in government.
We want government that is constrained by the Constitution.
@TheSutraDude - Can you name another scientist besides Galileo who was punished by the Church?
I didn’t think so.
He is the exception that proves the rule: The Church championed learning and science for a 1000 years before the Renaissance. Anyone who wanted to study theology had to study 4 years of math and physics.
A big difference I see here is that Christians are commanded to rejoice
in persecution whereas Atheists seem to want to eliminate their own persecution and some want to fight back. For Christians, their unique response to attacks should set them apart from how the natural person would respond. Many Christians need to look at how they are responding and compare it to the ways in which non-Christians respond. If there is no difference, some self-examination is in order. How do Atheists set themselves apart in the face of persecution?
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - [Can you name another scientist besides Galileo who was punished by the Church?]
Giordano Bruno. Copernicus.
[I'm Tea Party. We don't want religion in government.]
Maybe you don’t, but that makes you the minority of the Tea Party. A simple Google search shows that all results show Tea Party candidates trying to denounce the separation of Church and State.
@GodlessLiberal - You’re just spouting a myth. Both about the Tea Party and about the two scientists. Galileo is the only scientist on record to have ever been punished by the Church.
Tea Party people are normal people. American government is secular and we like it that way.
However, we believe like the Founding Fathers that God and America go good together.
@GodlessLiberal - Here’s a LINK giving information Copernicus. And Bruno was a philosopher not a scientist. LINK
It was centuries before Copernicus’ work could be proven scientifically. The Church insisted and Copernicus complied with the order that his work not be written of as fact.
Surprisingly, the first objections to Copernicus work came from Protestants.
@TheSutraDude - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_science#Conflict_thesis_and_.22drastic_revision.22
@BrokenShard - in the mid 1980s the Vatican announced in an official statement that it concedes the Earth is not the center of the Universe and in that statement the Vatican also stated it is nonetheless wrong for science to contradict Vatican doctrine. Yes the Vatican has had its hand in science but the fact that Galileo was only reinstated into the graces of the church 2 or 3 years ago speaks to how little and how politically motivated that hand is. also, science existed long before the birth of Christ. here is a quote though that i imagine will shake the foundation of many who believe that in taking a stand against evolution they are standing with the Vatican:
“The Catholic Church has long accepted an evolutionary worldview, complete with descent from apes and a big bang beginning. John Paul in particular has championed science and lent his personal support to “Scientific Perspectives on Divine Action,” a decade-long program of which our conference is a part.” - http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/pope_astro.html
@GodlessLiberal - a recent Harvard/Notre Dame study has concluded that the tea party is made up mostly of the same social conservatives who have made up the Christian right wing. neither economic concern over the great recession nor the desire to shrink government serve as the main predictors of who joins the tea party. “And Tea Partiers continue to hold these views: they seek “deeply religious” elected officials, approve of religious leaders’ engaging in politics and want religion brought into political debates. The Tea Party’s generals may say their overriding concern is a smaller government, but not their rank and file, who are more concerned about putting God in government.”
here is a link you might want to check out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/17/opinion/crashing-the-tea-party.html?_r=1
from the article: “…the Tea Party ranks lower than any of the 23 other groups we asked about — lower than both Republicans and Democrats. It is even less popular than much maligned groups like “atheists” and “Muslims.”
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Science resulted from christianity? Ridiculous. This belief completely disregards the societies that existed long before christianity came to be. The chinese had explosives and even made underwater bombs, pre-christianity. Imhotep was among the first to record his treatments, predating christianity by thousands of years. The ancient romans and greeks has mechanical statues and other objects considered to be robotic in nature, were brilliant in agricultural sciences and built roads which still exist today; none of which would be possible without science. The romans also created statues that wept and squirted milk (Cybele), and figured out how to build indoor saunas and hot baths by pumping water from room to room after redirecting it from natural hot springs. Those are just a few examples that come immediately to mind.
Science makes progress and discoveries every day, not because of christianity, but sadly in spite of it.
@ZombieMom_Speaks - As amazing as it sounds, the scientific method is an invention made possible by Christianity.
Lots of people were doing lots of things in lots of places, but it wasn’t the systematic, methodical, math and physics based endeavor begun at Christian universities during the Middle Ages.
The Greeks specifically didn’t believe in science. They believed that all knowledge could be attained through reason. That’s why Aristotle was almost 100% wrong on everything he postulated relating to science.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - If christians created science, then explain how it was that Hypatia (a mathematician), was the keeper of a library of scientific knowledge and philosophy. She was brutally murdered by a christian mob. The math and science came prior to christianity. Revisionism isn’t truth.
@ZombieMom_Speaks - Knowledge and technology aren’t science. Neither is mathematics.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - You brought up math as being christian, I was proving that it isn’t. Technology is part of science. Science is part of knowledge.
@ZombieMom_Speaks - Science is the result of Christainity. Not mathematics. Technology results from science. However, techology is not a part of science.
I was educated as an electrical engineer. We develop technology based on science that has already been proven.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - Again, science existed long before christianity. Christianity can lay no fact-based claim to science and if you look at the christian dark ages, you can quite easily and clearly see it was the exact opposite; christianity became the enemy of science. I am well studied in history and what you’re trying to do is called revisionism. It’s a lie, and a pretty sad attempt to create a favorable outcome where there was none, in favor of the group one supports.
This is going to go in circles obviously and I have no desire to argue with a historical revisionist. Christianity did not create science. Believe that if you please but it will never be reality. That’s not denial or anti-christian bigotry, it’s a historical fact.
@ZombieMom_Speaks - No it didn’t. You don’t know what science is, evidently.
Also, it would help if you read my post.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - I am well aware of what science is, being married to a scientist. I also read your posts and you are mistaken, both scientifically and historically. You seem to be laboring under the misconception that the world was basically banging rocks together until christianity came along and created science. I have given several examples of roman technology (which could not have come about without science) and one of Egyptian medical science, both of which predate christianity. Defend your beliefs if you wish, but they are not based upon fact.
I’m done arguing with you about this. It’s a waste of time. Neither of us will be convinced. Historical revisionism will always be a lie.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace - [Knowledge and technology aren't science.]
[We develop technology based on science that has already been proven.]
Sounds contradictory to me. There was technology before science, but technology comes from proved science?
@ZombieMom_Speaks - This topic has more to do with philosophy and history. So it is understandable that you might be argumentative.
@GodlessLiberal - ”We” meaning we in the West.
The ancient Chinese had great technology but little science.